<p>My comment about taking the full slate of AP’s came from my belief in the liberal arts philosophy. I believe people should be stretched in all directions, rather than just do what they are “good at.” I think specialization is a mistake in high school. </p>
<p>I think taking physics changes the way you see the world and think through problems, and by “problems,” I’m not talking about science problems. I guess I come from an opposite ideology as the Gardner-esque multiple and distinct intelligences. I think certain disciplines emphasize certain types of thinking but utilize all of them. So doing one subject (such as physics) can be good cross-training for even non-scientific disciplines. </p>
<p>If a student can’t do calculus, it means that they are not doing whatever type of mental gymnastics is necessary to figure out those problems. And that suggests to me that their analysis in other subjects may be superficial too. </p>
<p>Maybe if someone is either completely deficient in one area there is no way to get them to improve, but I think there are plenty of people that are talented enough that if they worked for it they could assimilate the way of thinking necessary for a discipline that they initially ‘didn’t get.’</p>
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<p>Have you considered that maybe people on CC may have thought this through more than you think they have? That is, perhaps their ideology is different from “more is better.”</p>
<p>For advanced kids, taking the full slate of math/science AP’s means they take one math and one science class a year. That’s all I’m saying. Some kids on cc talk about taking a so-called blowoff AP so they can avoid certain core subjects like calculus or physics.</p>
<p>I “forced” my son to go to a STEM magnet high school (actually he wanted to go, too). It’s a great college prep for almost anything. I would not force him to do STEM in college. He has developed into an history/poly-sci type. And don’t forget, you may have STEM drop-outs, but you have STEM drop-ins, too. I went from art education freshman year to civil engineering sophmore year.</p>
<p>Why does it need to be an AP course? When did regular chemistry, physics, calculus become inferior? When did it become necessary for high school students to be able to do college work BEFORE college? My kid will have 4 years of regular high school math, through calculus, is taking regular physics this year (11th grade) and will take a 4th year science elective next year. Are only the advanced kids suited to major in STEM?</p>
<p>I am a huge rah-rah-go-physics-go-calculus-they’re-good-for-you kinda person, but this seems just a wee bit over the top. Yes, calculus and physics help(ed) me see the world in a different way. But that doesn’t mean that people who don’t take calc or physics, whether because of aptitude or attitude, can’t think critically. The cross-training simply isn’t of interest to many. Horse to water, forcing them to drink, and all that.</p>
<p>Well, most people take honors chem and physics before they take the AP versions. For physics, the difference is that calculus is not used in the honors version. AP chem just is more extensive than the honors version. The difference in regular versus AP calc BC vs. AP Calc AB varies from school to school, probably, but I’ve heard that in Calc AB they expect less derivation from the students and more rote memorization of formulas. (Some schools call the first semester of calculus “AB” and the second semester “BC,” but I’m not referring to that. I’m talking about when the easier track is called “AB.”) I actually have never heard of “regular” calculus. </p>
<p>I don’t consider AP classes to be college work, but I guess it’s arbitrary.</p>
<p>Well, if you are good at that type of thinking naturally, maybe you don’t need to take the class. </p>
<p>On occasion, I hear a subtle argument that in its basest form is the same type of thinking that goes into the classic pouring wine into a wine glass problem or some other classic calculus problem. People often don’t “get” these types of subtle arguments. I guess my hypothesis is that if they had been able to develop the ability to think abstractly in calculus, they would be able to do that elsewhere.</p>
<p>This seems unlikely. Many high schools require students to take the regular course in a science before taking the AP course in that same science. Thus, the student who takes only one science per year would only have time for one AP science course.</p>
<p>Then, you’ve never meant some senior executives at some companies I used to work for…or a senior executive MBA aunt* who all have openly expressed such prejudices in the office/in family gathering situations and have admitted eliminating STEM grads from consideration for certain positions…especially executive/supervisory positions outside of technical departments. </p>
<p>Several HS classmates who worked in various non-tech corporations…including some in the fortune 500s have encountered the same attitudes from their own managers/those in other departments. </p>
<p>This stereotypical prejudice of STEM majors/grads is a flipside of STEM majors/grads stereotypes of non-STEM majors/grads as “less intelligent/smart/hard working” than themselves. People holding both of these prejudices do exist…and unfortunately some do factor it in in the hiring process or when deciding how to manage/treat those who report to them in the workplace. </p>
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<p>Agreed. Moreover, not all AP courses offered at a wide variety of public and private high schools are created equal. At the public magnet HS I attended, it wasn’t particularly noteworthy for kids to take the lower-track non-AP courses and yet…score 4+ on the AP exam without having taken the AP course or even looking at the study guides. </p>
<p>I’ve also known kids who scored 4+ on AP exams and taken their high school’s AP course and yet exhibited such serious knowledge gaps that they struggled in the same courses I and dozens of non-AP kids had no issues with.</p>
<p>No, cobrat, I’ve never met any senior executives, I’m only a consultant who regularly talks with CEO’s, presidents, vice presidents, and directors at major companies. And no, I’ve not met your aunt, but she’s just one person. Honestly, there is a theme running throughout your posts where you seem to take the opinions and idiosyncracies of your extended family as being meaningful to you and as something that should be meaningful to others. People don’t stereotype as much as you seem to think they do.</p>
<p>I think someone’s extrapolating a bit too much from his or her own high-school experience. No, not every school has the resources to support Chemistry - Honors Chemistry - AP Chemistry for all the sciences. In many schools, the Honors and the AP are one and the same.</p>
<p>The college board seems to consider them to be college level classes and markets them that way.
From the CB site regarding AP classes
I’ve never heard of calculus ab and bc except in reference to the AP courses. Most calculus classes in my school district are regular. Not honors calculus but just plain old calculus. Granted, not that many students are taking calculus, so maybe that’s an honor in itself? :)</p>
<p>This is spoken like the stereotype STEM-uber-alles mentality. I agree analytical and critical thinking skills are important, but I disagree that calculus (or physics, or any other subject) is the magical rah-rah only way to develop those skills. You know, the ability to read people interpersonally or to develop a history for a character when you’re acting in a play are critical thinking skills just as much as figuring out the area under the curve or whatever. </p>
<p>Frankly I’m telling my humanities-oriented son that he’s better off fulfilling his math requirements with statistics rather than going higher in calculus, because calculus is pretty much useless for the everyday person. And I say this as a math major who looooved calculus, and diff-eq, and game theory, and topology, and all kinds of theoretical and completely useless math.</p>
<p>In such a system, it might indeed make sense for top students (not the entire class) to take all three sciences at the Honors/AP level.</p>
<p>But in schools where the Honors high school level course is the prerequisite for the AP course, asking students to take all three of these AP sciences loads their schedules very heavily with science courses – which does not seem appropriate for students whose main interests lie elsewhere.</p>
<p>Something that has amazed me since recently discovering CC and reading Parents Forum threads, is how greatly high school practices apparently differ around the country. At my D’s high school in the Atlanta suburbs, students take either Calculus AB or BC, never both. Advanced students take either Honors or AP Biology, not both. The same goes for physics, chemistry, English and foreign languages. They do well on the AP exams too (4s and 5s). I wonder if students take more courses per year in those places where they take the subject for two years to complete the AP level? High school students here are normally taking 6 courses per year.</p>
<p>Is math/physics the only way to develop critical thinking? No, I agree with you there. However, if someone has some kind of block that prevents them doing the type of critical thinking that is necessary for calculus and helpful to other fields, my feeling is that they probably won’t develop those skills in english. They are more likely to rely on their strengths in english, such as, for example, a command of a large vocabulary. I think spatial thinking, visualization, and other types of abstract thinking necessary for math/physics are helpful in humanities subjects as well as in real-life, but if someone isn’t inclined to think that way, they aren’t likely to work on thinking that way in english class.</p>
<p>Hm…well, the high school I was talking about was my home high school and not the public magnet I went to (which doesn’t have AP’s, in fact.) My home high school is a good school but not exceptional, so I figured that its curriculum path was fairly common. In that high school, math placement had a lot to do with how far you got. It was somewhat difficult to take AP chem, physics, and bio. I think the track for the advanced students was to take honors bio freshman year, honors chem sophomore year, and then start taking AP sciences. I don’t remember if honors physics was typical to take before AP’s–maybe that was taken sophomore year too.</p>
<p>Anyway, what I advocate for the advanced student is not too different from what top 30 schools typically ask for, to take “the most rigorous courseload possible.”</p>
<p>push might be too much…be a little nudging isn’t a bad idea to see if the kid likes it. Way too may let the kid choose posts…most kids don’t know what they want to be or major in.</p>