Do You Think It's A Good Idea For Parents To Push Kids Into STEM?

[ucbalumnus]

<p>

@collegealum314

My comment about taking the full slate of AP’s came from my belief in the liberal arts philosophy. I believe people should be stretched in all directions, rather than just do what they are “good at.” I think specialization is a mistake in high school.

</p>

<p>While it is reasonable to expect a college bound student to complete a rigorous high school level preparation in all of the core academic subjects, it is less reasonable to expect AP level course work in everything. Not every student is advanced enough to reach AP level in everything, not every high school will give the students enough schedule space to take AP level courses in everything, and not every high school has a large list of AP courses (when I went to high school, there were only about 6 AP courses, although they did include English Literature and Calculus BC).</p>

<p>Taking AP level course work is certainly desirable for students who complete the high school level work in all of the core academic subjects, but should not be considered mandatory (although a student who does have extra schedule space in high school and has or will complete all high school level core academic subject work should certainly be encourage to take AP level courses).</p>

[collegealum314]

<p>

No, cobrat, I’ve never met any senior executives, I’m only a consultant who regularly talks with CEO’s, presidents, vice presidents, and directors at major companies. And no, I’ve not met your aunt, but she’s just one person. Honestly, there is a theme running throughout your posts where you seem to take the opinions and idiosyncracies of your extended family as being meaningful to you and as something that should be meaningful to others. People don’t stereotype as much as you seem to think they do.

</p>

<p>I don’t have much experience in the business world, but I read that an MIT STEM graduate who had a position pretty high up at NBC said that she had to overcome some STEM stereotypes to advance to her current position. (Her position has nothing to do with STEM; I think she created some pretty well-known shows.) The stereotypes she talked about were that STEM majors weren’t creative, not that they lacked social skills.</p>

[reeinaz]

<p>

I think spatial thinking, visualization, and other types of abstract thinking necessary for math/physics are helpful in humanities subjects as well as in real-life, but if someone isn’t inclined to think that way, they aren’t likely to work on thinking that way in english class.

And what is the inherent negative in that? Sure it’s great for someone to be able to call on different modes of thinking as it suits them. But is it necessary that all people are able to do so? And so what if they aren’t able to or choose not to?</p>

[Marian]

<p>

Taking AP level course work is certainly desirable for students who complete the high school level work in all of the core academic subjects, but should not be considered mandatory (although a student who does have extra schedule space in high school and has or will complete all high school level core academic subject work should certainly be encourage to take AP level courses).

</p>

<p>I think it’s also important to caution students not to take APs at the expense of courses in the regular high school curriculum that are required or recommended by colleges. For example, it is unwise to drop one’s foreign language after level 2 in order to take an extra AP science in the freed-up period.</p>

[ucbalumnus]

<p>

@collegealum314

I guess my hypothesis is that if they had been able to develop the ability to think abstractly in calculus, they would be able to do that elsewhere.

</p>

<p>While calculus is certainly important for many STEM subjects, and can certainly be helpful for social studies majors who want to gain a better understanding of statistics which is often used in social studies, does it necessarily have to be taken in high school? Plenty of college students take calculus as freshmen and do find majoring in STEM subjects or other subjects where calculus is used.</p>

[collegealum314]

<p>

And what is the inherent negative in that? Sure it’s great for someone to be able to call on different modes of thinking as it suits them. But is it necessary that all people are able to do so? And so what if they aren’t able to or choose not to?

</p>

<p>The more modes of thinking one has access to, the less likely they are to arrive at the “wrong” answer. Perhaps the wrong answer will be a fatal flaw in a business plan, trying to connect to working class people by mentioning that you know lots of NASCAR team owners, or even forcing their kid to major in something because the average salary is higher than other fields.</p>

<p>I think developing different modes of thinking is the most valuable thing you can do in high school–it means you can go on and learn anything.</p>

[ucbalumnus]

<p>

@Marian

I think it’s also important to caution students not to take APs at the expense of courses in the regular high school curriculum that are required or recommended by colleges. For example, it is unwise to drop one’s foreign language after level 2 in order to take an extra AP science in the freed-up period.

</p>

<p>True. If a college bound high school student wants to stop one of the core subjects before completing the rigorous high school level preparation in it*, it would be worth advising the student that it is not generally a good idea.</p>

<p>*Minimum would be:</p>

<p>English: 4 years, AP desirable
Math: through precalculus minimum, calculus desirable
History and social studies: 3 or 4 years
Foreign language: level 3 minimum, level 4 or AP desirable
Science: all 3 of biology, chemistry, and physics
Art and music: yes</p>

[eastcoascrazy]

<p>Yes, yes, yes! Push them into every STEM course available, and also, onto every travel team for at least three sports (exposure to a different kind of thinking), and a good hard shove into piano, violin and percussion lessons at an early age (studies abound linking the advantages of music lessons and academics), and some advanced courses in creative writing (yet another way to think)… And for heaven’s sake, add in a solid thousand hours of community service while we’re pushing… And a few unpaid volunteer jobs with the homeless.</p>

<p>Shaken up into a complete mess of a kid. Well, excluding the children of those of you who are about to jump all over me in your eagerness tell the world how your child flourished on 4 hours of sleep a night.</p>

<p>;)</p>

[collegealum314]

<p>

Yes, yes, yes! Push them into every STEM course available, and also, onto every travel team for at least three sports (exposure to a different kind of thinking), and a good hard shove into piano, violin and percussion lessons at an early age (studies abound linking the advantages of music lessons and academics), and some advanced courses in creative writing (yet another way to think)… And for heaven’s sake, add in a solid thousand hours of community service while we’re pushing… And a few unpaid volunteer jobs with the homeless.

</p>

<p>OK, let’s all take a deep breath LOL. If you place into the top track in a decent high school, is it really that tough to take AP english, AP history, AP calc, and a couple of science AP’s etc.? Don’t almost all kids take a humanities class, a math class, and a science class every semester?</p>

[ucbalumnus]

<p>Not every school offers all three of the main science AP courses, and some require taking the regular course before taking the AP course. Also, not every student who is good in math is place a year or two ahead in math in order to be able to take calculus in high school.</p>

<p>If the high school allows taking AP biology, chemistry, or physics as options instead of the regular version of the course, then it can be easier schedule-wise for a more motivated student to take the AP versions of all three.</p>

[collegealum314]

<p>

Not every school offers all three of the main science AP courses, and some require taking the regular course before taking the AP course. Also, not every student who is good in math is place a year or two ahead in math in order to be able to take calculus in high school.

</p>

<p>Sure, I understand that.</p>

[Iglooo]

<p>Does anyone know what it is like in other countries, say, Germany or France? How rigorous are their science requirements?</p>

[cobrat]

<p>

@igloo

Does anyone know what it is like in other countries, say, Germany or France? How rigorous are their science requirements?

</p>

<p>Not sure about France, but from what I heard from friends who grew up in Germany and from reading about their educational system, the high school system is very different from the US.</p>

<p>First, whether one goes onto attend a college prep high school(Gymnasium or similar type schools) or not is determined by their academic performance up to the end of middle school and teachers’/administrators’ assessment. </p>

<p>Only the academically top kids to go to the college prep type high schools…and depending on expressed interests/aptitudes…they have college prep high schools with specializations in science, humanities, social sciences, or arts/music. To many Germans…especially those of older generations…the comprehensive US high school model is too generalist and diluted because it has to accommodate everyone with a wider varying academic ability range. </p>

<p>As for East Asia…especially China/Taiwan…they also tend to expect students to be tracked to academic/non-academic paths at the end of middle school and to varying degrees…select science/non-science specialization tracks in the academic high schools. </p>

<p>In Taiwan’s case, one’s expected to complete the equivalent of US high school bio, chem, and physics with lab and math up to calculus level by the end of middle school if one hopes to be eligible to enter a college-prep oriented high school. A reason why my mother was considered a “remedial student” for not taking calculus until sophomore year at a remedial high school in the '50s. </p>

<p>In short…with a few exceptions…those educational systems aren’t good for those who aren’t early self-starters who know what they want to be by 11-13 years of age or late-bloomers.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>I think the message I sent to my children that it was fine with us (parents) if they didn’t load up on AP’s and selectively focused on their interest areas (that is, D didn’t take AP English, S didn’t take APs in science and “only” took Calc AB instead of BC) was a message that was of far more import in the long term to their development as human beings, than anything they might have learned in the AP classes they missed. And amazingly enough, both got into schools considered top here on CC. Go figure. You know, the lesson of giving oneself a break every now and then is an important lesson, too.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

OK, let’s all take a deep breath LOL. If you place into the top track in a decent high school, is it really that tough to take AP english, AP history, AP calc, and a couple of science AP’s etc.? Don’t almost all kids take a humanities class, a math class, and a science class every semester?

</p>

<p>If you have a kid who has another interest, such as music or theater or fine arts, that may indeed be difficult to take AP’s in all five “basics” (English, math, science, history, foreign language) and pursue those interest areas and also pursue any other requirements needed for graduation (for example, consumer economics; or in my state, phys ed which is required daily for all 4 years). I recognize that interests such as music, theater and fine arts aren’t STEM and hence probably aren’t important and don’t teach critical thinking @@.</p>

[Marian]

<p>I agree with both of Pizzagirl’s last two posts.</p>

<p>One of my kids was strongly interested in computer science and technical education and wanted to take all of his high school’s course offerings in those areas (a total of seven year-long courses). The other, who was in an IB diploma program and therefore subject to more than the usual number of academic restrictions, wanted to be a member of a musical performing ensemble (a one-period-a-day commitment) for all four years of high school. And both wanted to take additional social studies courses – psychology and sociology for one, economics and law for the other – beyond what the basic curriculum required.</p>

<p>In such situations, something has to give. I would rather see students get a chance to pursue their interests rather than following somebody’s preconceived notion of what they need to study beyond the basics needed for college admission.</p>

[collegealum314]

<p>

I recognize that interests such as music, theater and fine arts aren’t STEM and hence probably aren’t important and don’t teach critical thinking @@.

</p>

<p>1) I’ve never seen theater as a class; it’s an EC and I don’t see why this has anything to do with the discussion. So if someone does an EC, it means that there is no time to take core APs? I played multiple sports and I had time for other ECs as well as advanced classes.
2) How many high schools have more than one or two fine arts class? This has got to be rare too.
3) MANY kids take orchestra and have time for the core AP classes. Sometimes there are conflicts, but it’s not like it’s too much work. I guess if you are that serious that you are practicing like 5-6 hours a day, then this is a different story.</p>

<p>I don’t know why you believe I don’t value humanities or the arts.</p>

[Marian]

<p>

I’ve never seen theater as a class; it’s an EC and I don’t see why this has anything to do with the discussion.

</p>

<p>Theater is a class in our school district. So is journalism. So are band, orchestra, and choir.</p>

<p>And I don’t know of any school systems where computer science, my son’s main interest, is an EC.</p>

[eastcoascrazy]

<p>Medium sized high school. Everyone is required to take one fine arts course, one tech ed course, 4 years of English, 4 of math, 3 years of science, 3 social studies, and 1 year of health/physical Ed. Students also are required to choose EITHER two years of a foreign language or two years of advanced technology classes. </p>

<p>Students can choose to track into a career academy if they wish: biosciences, culinary science, automotive tech, pre-engineering, computer programming, child development, business management, visual communications instruction management, architectural design, government and law academy are examples. Kids who choose these academies are sometimes bused to a centrally located school shared by all the high schools in the county.</p>

<p>Our high school also offers 14 art classes, 5 dance classes, 2 different bands (classes),4 vocal music classes, guitar, music technology, music theory, piano, 2 orchestras (classes), musical theater, stagecraft, theater arts. All classes, not ECs.</p>

<p>We also offer a plethora of AP classes.</p>

<p>So, yes, it could be difficult to push a non STEM inclined kid into STEM classes, if they have an interest in something else. On the other hand, the basic requirements for graduation include 8 STEM classes at a minimum. Isn’t that enough?</p>

[reeinaz]

<p>My son is taking advanced drama :D</p>