Don't make this mistake with shy student

Parents Forum
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<p>I agree with SDonCC that the college the OP is talking about has some qualities that most other small colleges don’t share. It is Sarah Lawrence if I read her previous posts right – sorry to state it since the OP didn’t want to, but I think it is very relevant to the conversation and obvious to anyone who goes back and looks at the OP’s posts. My guess is that many shy students would do fine in an atmosphere where the other students were less intense and “out there”. There are tons of other small schools that have a very different vibe, and the shy student may have done okay with the smaller classes and professor attention if they didn’t have the same student intensity to contend with. </p>

<p>I am sure SDonCC is thinking Grinnell (and I agree), and our personal family experience with Dickinson and Harvey Mudd also indicate that a small school can be a great fit for a shy student. I just wouldn’t want anyone to take a sweeping “small school + shy student = bad fit” generalization away from this thread. Maybe sometimes, but there are TONS of small schools where a shy student could fit in very well. I was a somewhat shy student as an undergrad at a large university back in the day, and I was able to blend in and avoid attention. And I probably got less than half of what I could have out of college than if I had instead attended a smaller college where they “knew my name” and gave me mentoring & support that the large college does not provide.</p>

<p>PS - Oh, please, can we NOT go down the rabbit hole of “shy” vs. “introverted” that derails EVERY SINGLE ONE of these questions when it is asked? Give it a rest… It is NOT the ‘key’ to the issue, it is a sideshow that makes the discussion useless to the OP every time it happens.</p>

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<p>Yes, Sarah Lawrence is a very specific and unique environment, that I thought would be perfect for my shy introvert (timid about joining in but strongly desires being included – but also needs a lot of alone time, and doesn’t care if she sees a steady boyfriend only once a week) , but it turned out to have been the opposite. Super self-confidence, whether quiet or “out there”, seems to have been key, and my daughter is very humble, self-effacing and deferential. In another small school, she might have been fine, but not with this group of kids who are very sure of who they are, happy to advertise their “differences”, and on a mission to stand out. Just not her. I would’ve loved the one on one conferences with the professors (I am an outgoing introvert: can talk to anyone, makes friends easily, hates parties, needs alone time), and sharing my views in class (the more controversy the better) and I just projected that feeling onto her, and she didn’t think to question it until she got there. I don’t know if NYU (commuting from home and/or staying with her sister in her Manhattan studio) will be right, but we’ll try that on for size. She says she doesn’t want the dorm expereince, and that makes me sad, but I guess that’s her decision.
I also know a shy student who did not like Vassar because of its “exposure” due to size – not sure how the vibe differs there from Sarah Lawrence, but that is another example of a shy person not liking the intimacy of a small school setting.</p>

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<p>thanks for this great thread! It really resonates with me as my son is extremely introverted. I had a discussion about this with him at his birthday dinner last March, encouraging him to speak up more because I didn’t think he could be successful hidden in the shadows. He is very bright and just got a 233 on his PSAT but I think his “shyness” really holds him back from what he could achieve. His response was “quiet people can rule the world, mom”. I’m not so sure, lol. We will be going through this decision process soon of small versus anonymous large school so this is really pertinent. I really appreciate knowing the names of the specific schools as well.</p>

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<p>As mentioned before, the Book Quiet will convince you that, yes, quiet people CAN rule the world.</p>

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<p>My3Daughters, I empathize with your daughters concern. While I don’t consider myself shy, I’m no doubt introverted. Looks like your daughter went to Fordham. I went to Carleton. I remember sometimes just not wanting to engage with professors. I tended to do much better in classes between 50 and 100 people. For example, I took a physics class where the professor made all the students write in “learning journals”. The professor would comment on our entries. Honestly, this drove me nuts. I felt like “the way I learned is my business, so butt out”. I’d write about how the professors effort’s to engage with the students wasted my time and my parents money in my learning journal… :p</p>

<p>With all of this being said, I would go to Carleton again. I’d be concerned about your daughters decision. When the classes are over 100, the grading is not carefully done on exams and papers. Also, you need to be very aggressive to get help when you need it in a class. Going in and arguing about a grade with a prof or shoving you way past loads of students to speak to a TA is not going to be much fun for your shy daughter either.</p>

<p>Sometimes it might be better for you to express concerns to your daughters undergrad about the issues or consider a different major. Sometimes professors at these small schools really need to learn to back off, so students can get the big positives from a small college experience.</p>

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<p>It will be interesting to hear how things go at the large university. Not to be a naysayer, but, I have a feeling things will not get better. I hope they do, but I am guessing they won’t.</p>

<p>At a large university, she will have to be able to step up and speak up for herself more and advocate for herself. There will be no hand holding and everything will come down to her ability to come out of her shell and speak up.</p>

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<p>Her shyness actually can be “cure.” Maybe she will feel a little shy inside, but try role playing with her. Then, let her role play with some of your friends. Have her practice making phone calls, and so on. Unless she is working on it, she will never reach that point where she can do stuff. I have BTDT. We still struggle some. But my child who is like this has come a long way.</p>

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<p>I agree with the IT suggestion.</p>

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<p>Interesting post, and I agree that it is difficult to make generalizations. While I understand the perspective of wanting some anonymity and not wanting to be on the spot all the time in small classes, there is a downside in that it takes a lot more effort to get to know professors. My experience has been that with large classes, one has to be willing to speak up in large lectures, frequently go to office hours, etc. in order to truly connect at all with professors. The bulk of my classes have had well over one hundred people, and I’m pretty sure I could have easily gone through all four years without having a professor know my name, if I chose. </p>

<p>However, if you ever want any kind of letter of recommendation or reference from professors, you obviously need to know them. This may be a total non-issue for some, but I ended up needing 3 letters of recommendation for grad school and it took me a lot of effort to get to know those who wrote my letters; it definitely didn’t happen just by attending class - so just something else to think about. For some really shy students, taking the initiative to seek out professors might be difficult. I consider myself introverted, although I wasn’t particularly shy about approaching my professors, but it could be hard for some people.</p>

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<p>As an incredibly shy student who hardly talked in my small, private high school, I’ve found a mid-sized university to be a great fit. It really depends on the person and the school. Notre Dame has worked for me because the dorm community is strong and it’s been fairly easy to make friends and get to know people. At the same time, my classes have been mostly big and I’ve been able to fade into the background and not feel any pressure to speak up. I also have smaller tutorials that have allowed me to participate and interact with people without much problem. I’ve been too shy to directly speak with my professors thus far (still a freshman) but they’ve responded promptly to email when I needed help, and the TAs have been very approachable. </p>

<p>I’ve had a really great transition, and I think you have to visit and get to know a school to decide if it’s right. I’ve found a place that’s big enough for me to blend in when I went to, but also with enough resources that I have plenty of people to reach out to if I need it. Getting to know professors for any letters of recommendations is also pretty important to consider, as mentioned. Every teacher knew me well at my high school, but at a larger place I’ll definitely have to work harder to have a good relationship with my professors.</p>

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<p>The more I read through these very insightful posts, the more I think it was the intense intimacy of Sarah Lawrence – not just the size itself – that was the problem for my daughter who is not only shy bordering on socially phobic (rarely calls friends – they have to call her, and if they don’t, she cares only a little), but also has bipolar disorder II, which means depression can be very dangerous. This school is extremely unconventional in its approach to education: you take only 3 classes but each class has a self-designed independent study component; you meet every week or every other week for a one-one-one conference with each professor; you sit around a table of 11-15 students and speaking up is part of your grade. I would have loved such a curriculum (but I’m not shy) and it breaks my heart that she received a Dean’s Scholarship (for 1/3 the total cost) and that we were able to afford the $40,000/year balance with no loans ( as we did not qualify for need-based aid, though are not millioniares like so many there) – and she was unable to complete one semester. Her therapist thought the school would be just the thing for her. And the amount of support and nurturing the school gave her and our family was absolutely unbelievable. However, that intense curriculum coupled with students who are extremely vocal, opinionated, self-confident and adventurous caused her extreme distress (though she and her room mate continue their relationship – neither had any other friends, even living in a suite of 3 other girls). To leave her there, after meds adjustments, group therapy on campus, and phone sessions and in person visits to her two mental health professionals at home didn’t do the trick, would have been irresponsible, with all I knew about her state of mind. This is a sweet, very attractive, super smart, creative kid who always had a handful of friends and steady boyfriends thorughout her years at a 1600-plus competitive suburban public high school, and sitting in classes of 25 where she could speak if she wanted to would have been the answer, I now see. We are considering NYU now mainly because she wants to commute from home and that is an option that would fit with her academic stats, plus would encourage use of public transportation, since I doubt she will ever use her driver’s lisence much (I suspect there are sensory integration issues). She is no longer looking for the complete college expereince, and that makes me sad, too, but people do commute and somehow have full lives. She’ll start there as a non-matriculated, visiting student and we’ll see how it goes from there.<br>
I began the premise of this thread as “shy students don’t always do well in small schools”, because I talked with shy adults who confirmed that they would not want to have to speak in class all the time or meet very frequently with professors. But truly, my daughter has social phobia issues and depression issues, and her college is very unique in its “over the top” component, so we’re talking an extreme situation here. Weird how we just didn’t get this at her visits (including an overnight). We saw a lot of kids dressed in black with bohemian clothing and dyed hair, and thought it was a place for brooding poets (and of course, it’s reputation for artsiness is legendary) , when, in the final analysis, it was more for very out going kids who love to celebrate their differences and strong opinions – I love that, but she did not, even though she looks every part the Sarah Lawrence student. Maybe another small school WOULD work, but I don’t think there is one with a recognizable name that she could commute from(being shy and never one to toot her own horn, she’s going to need a strong name to get her stated in an entry level job). We loved Fordham at Lincoln Center, but they now have a compulsary public speaking component for every year and that is too anxiety producing. Yes, she gave oral presentations in hs and knows she will have to in college, but to know that would be a signficant part of every year at school would not be the right fit at this time.<br>
It is ok to be shy. My 83 year old mother is on the extreme end of the shy spectrum, went to Ohio State, and spent 40 years as a university librarian and did fine in her professional life.</p>

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<p>Good luck to you. Your daughter is young and changing and is still discovering what works best for her.</p>

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<p>OP, I am so sorry for your daughter’s experience at SLC. However I do wonder at your description of ‘the Sarah Lawrence student’ and the ‘intense intimacy’ of the campus. I have a junior there, not a poet/musician/artist/theatre type but with friends who seem to span the gamut from those types to ‘IT crowd’ types. Intensely shy in HS, he has blossomed in the one-to-one conferences. However in his first year, he deliberately chose lecture courses, saving the small seminar classes for subsequent years when his confidence had grown. Again, I am sorry your daughter’s experience was so different. I just don’t think it is that helpful to speak of ‘the Sarah Lawrence student’ and to somehow blame that stereotype for what was obviously a very unfortunate mismatch of student and school. I wish your daughter every success at NYU.</p>

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<p>samuck: if only my daughter had been allowed all lecture courses and to save the seminars for down the road! She actually did enjoy her 45-student psych lecture, but was told “that isn’t really the model” for the SLC approach in general, and that no, she could not take all lectures the first year , even with her psychological accomodations considered. (I thought that would be one way she could stay. No one wanted her to stick it out more than I.) Perhaps the structure changed a bit since your son was a freshman?</p>

<p>There could’ve been a lot of issues: she became fast friends with her room mate back in April, before she ever got to campus, via Facebook from a 2500 mile distance, and that increased our hopes even more that things would work out. The two of them, I believe, became a crutch for one another, and didn’t even reach out to the 3 other girls they were living in a suite with. While that friendship was a godsend and hopefully will continue, it did not afford either of them the true college experience of getting to know a lot of people.</p>

<p>It kills me that it didn’t work, but it just didn’t. She describes it as being too overwhelmed by strong personalities to ever speak up in class. Her Dean’s Scholarship (purely merit) was based on the fact that she was seen as “an unusually good match” for SLC. I wish it had been so.</p>

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<p>I wanted to share my experience with my HS daughter. She is now enrolled in a 1:1 student/teacher high school which has been amazing for her. Being introverted, she would hide in the back of her middle school class and not participate. As she says- she now has to participate and “show-up” every day, and loves it. She is building relationships with her teachers and also gaining confidence.</p>

<p>I believe a small school environment will work best for her- but I plan to listen to her…I have found that to be the best strategy.</p>

<p>Thank you for all of the experiences and information- She is ending her sophomore year (4.0 so far!) and we will being looking at colleges soon.</p>

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<p>^^ That really sounds fabulous!
One would think close professor contact would be wonderful for anyone. Maybe for my daughter it was just too much of a “baptism by fire”: living away from home, meeting all new people, having to speak in class when she’s always hated doing that – too much all at once.</p>

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<p>OP- hugs.</p>

<p>I have no suggestions for your D but I have one for you- dial it back. I honestly believe that thoughts like “it kills me that it didn’t work” isn’t doing much for your mental health. I absolutely understand and empathize with your sadness and your worry and your frustration, but if you can find a way to move this entire experience into the “different strokes for different folks” bucket, and stop projecting your own disappointment onto your D, I think you’re all going to come out of this speed bump much happier and healthier as a family.</p>

<p>I know SO MANY families right now dealing with college issues (kids who went off seemingly healthy and happy and are now dealing with major health problems- bi-polar, kids transferring directly from an ivy-covered dorm to a lock down substance abuse facility, kid going to health services for a runny nose that wouldn’t go away which was diagnosed as a malignant growth near the sinuses, etc.). Not to trivialize your D’s distress- and your story makes me sad- but it shouldn’t “kill you”, even in jest, that your D is re-grouping after a poor fit Freshman experience.</p>

<p>We all have hopes and dreams for our kids- and sometimes, we’ve got kids for whom our own ambitions and projections really fit. And sometimes not. </p>

<p>But- the important thing for your D is that she’s good at recognizing her own needs and limitations. And that you support her 100% which you clearly are. But once you let go of your own frustration and sadness over Sarah Lawrence, you will open up your mind to other possibilities. Hunter, Macauley, Queens might be affordable options. Barnard may well be receptive to a transfer application next year (and Columbia’s classes are open to all Barnard students for cross-enrollment so your D doesn’t need to fear that every class will be seminar based.) Your D may feel ready for a dorm experience after getting a year of credits under her belt. You don’t know.</p>

<p>But kudos to you… and once you’ve taken your sadness and dumped it in the East River (or whatever good-bye ceremony works for you) you will feel a lot better about next semester and your D’s options going forward.</p>

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<p>I teach at a large school and went to a large college. <em>Any</em> student who wants to go to college should approach the professors within the first week of classes, and make themselves known.</p>

<p>Did you ever think that perhaps college is not right for her, due to the socialness of it? Maybe she would be happier as an apprentice or in a trade school? </p>

<p>I agree that online courses are very appropriate as a solution, but you have to think about the long-term options. I would seriously think about talking to specialized career placement (Division of Vocational Rehabilitation in our state helps disabled folks with finding an appropriate career) to find out what she might want to do.</p>

<p>She can’t for example be a doctor or lawyer if she can’t even deal with a professor calling out her name and asking her a question. There are a few colleges that deal with special needs kids out there.</p>

<p>And would it be a bad thing to take a year or two off before college? Some kids are not ready until 25, and the students I get from overseas who have worked and/or been in the military (requirement in some countries) really understand why they are there and what their goal is.</p>

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<p>Blossom: wise and sound advice! I am in therapy with my daughter to help solve those issues.
rhandco: My daughter’s IQ, SATs, grades, and school activities would indicate she is very mush a cerebral person, and academically and intellectually suited for a very selective college environment. Socially, she may not be suited for dorm life and small classes where not speaking is very much noted. Being shy and having bipolar wouldn’t bode any better in the trades than in academia, because those kinds of jobs involve personal interaction, probably even more than certain college-degree jobs. I can’t imagine her in a trade, as she is not at all mechanically inclined. She has excelled in writing (particularly poetry), music and world languages. As I’ve mentioned before, her grandmother is of the same temperament and went to a large univerity (back when the vast majority of women stopped their educations after high school), and built a 40 year career as a univeristy librarian. There are cerebral jobs that allow for social phobia.Every college todays is mandated to accomodate special needs, and she had a very supportive plan in place at Sarah Lawrence. She felt overwhelmed by highly vocal and opinionated class mates in a very intimate setting where she felt she was expected to behave in kind-- she would not find that everywhere. I teach college, at a non-selective state school, and my students are very divided between spirited opinions to reluctant talkers to disinterested non-participants to those in-between. I have never considered that college in general is not for my daughter. This is a kid who taught herself German and Russian, unconnected to any class, and who writes massive volumes of poetry, unassigned. She really isn’t a trades person – doesn’t have those gifts, but has an abundance of other talents.</p>

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<p>I don’t buy the ‘get to know your college professor’ mentality. When I went to college, it seemed like most who did that were simply trying to get a better grade (particularly in subjects where the grading was subjective) by fooling the professor into thinking more highly of them. I think that backfires when the professor catches on.</p>

<p>I am not a doctor or psychologist and won’t try to play one online. However, if you know your son/daughter is ‘shy/introverted’ in grade school (and it is NOT due to any medical condition), then you should make an effort to encourage them to be more outgoing and interact more with their classmates. In the real world after college, you will need to speak up for yourself in a wide variety of situations. The reality is if you never speak up and all always afraid of interaction with other people, you will tend to get run over by others who are overly outgoing/aggressive. You can’t always hide in the corner in an effort to avoid such interactions.</p>

<p>Your parents can’t be there your entire life to speak for you or try to tell you what to do.</p>