<p>^^ Temperament is inborn and genetic. You can encourage kids to be outgoing, but if they aren’t, they aren’t. From the time she could walk, my daughter went to play groups, library story times, sing a longs, Mommy and Me classes, pre-school, extra-curricular activities from first through 12th grades; because she was/is very attractive and sweet, alot of kids sought her out and she started “dating” in middle school, and had three serious, year-long romantic relationships during high school, and the expansive social group of the marching band. Guess what? She’s still shy!</p>
<p>Let me ask: does anyone ever encourage their kids to be less extroverted? We could sure use fewer egocentric, spot-light-grabbers in our culture!</p>
<p>She is shy, and rather than try to change her – which can’t be forced – I’d like to find a good environment for her. This thread is about the fact that perhaps the tiny, quirky school is NOT the right match for a shy person, contrary to popular belief, including mine until recently.</p>
<p>Shy people have much to offer (read the book Quiet!), should be allowed to be themselves, and can fit in at colleges we might not automatically think of – like in larger, less personal settings.</p>
<p>To return to the premise of the original post, ’ don’t make this mistake with a shy student,’ what is the lesson learnt? It’s not ‘don’t send your shy student to Sarah Lawrence’ . My own shy student has flourished there. And the odd thing is, i tried to convince him of the advantage of being anonymous in a large lecture hall versus having to participate in a small seminar. I was a shy student myself and though I looked at places like Bennington and Hampshire ( my first choice, where I was waitlisted), I ended up at Harvard where my most memorable classes were those lectures where i was one of 1,200 students. I never took advantage of office hours to meet professors but got a sterling reco from a world famous professor that got me into grad school- He didn’t know me at all, but his grad student, my tutor, wrote the letter and he signed it. That’s how it worked back then. The grad school was Oxford and that’s where I came to appreciate the one-to-one tutorial system that lies behind the SLC don system. My son took the required first year seminar at SLC but made sure his other first year classes were lectures. But now, as a third year, he has worked with professors who know him, know hos work, and can honestly write him a sterling recommendation. The FYS is a safe space with a Don who remains the student’s advisor for the next three years. A student who is uncomfortable with the FYS or Don can change, So I still don’t know what the lesson learnt is here? Except, don’t presume it’s all going to work out? Which I think all us parents who send our kids off - hearts in mouth, fingers crossed, - can definitely empathise with.</p>
<p>I think the lesson is not to assume that a shy student will do well with a lot of attention. We wrote off NYU originally because it was so large, and looked at no other large schools. That was my mistake. I don’t blame Sarah Lawrence at all. I wish I were young and could go there myself.</p>
<p>The lesson is also not to make every single life’s decision for a 17 year old. We have dozens of posters here who want to know where their kid should go for undergrad to maximize their chances of getting into med school. Well, if I had a buck for every HS kid who thinks he or she is pre-med but won’t ever apply to med school… And the posters who KNOW their kid needs top notch research because the kid is going to get a PhD. (Ditto). And the parents pushing their kids into a direct admit program for a competitive type of Master’s degree. And the parents who KNOW their kid will do great a third tier public because cream rises to the top. And the kids who want to know should they go to U Penn and get a 3.5 or to Penn State and get a 4.0 and which one is better for law school…</p>
<p>You get my point.</p>
<p>The OP has generously shared their story. You can’t look at your 17 year old and predict what will happen when he or she is 25; sometimes you can’t even predict what will happen when he or she is 18.</p>
<p>We can all be humbled by how many twists and turns can derail even the best plan.</p>
<p>You sound like you made the right decision for your daughter. From what I’ve heard about it, SLC is not one of those schools where more or less anyone can fit in; it attracts a specific type of student and has an environment that is unique in many ways. Quite apart from that, your D’s mental health is much more important than anything else, right now.</p>
<p>That being said, I think it is important to distinguish between run-of-the-mill introversion and a really crippling shyness. It is unclear to me from your posts which best describes your D, since she actually seems to have had a pretty active social life in high school. I can also totally understand not wanting to be in an environment where every class is an intimate seminar that puts a lot of pressure on participants. I don’t, however, think that a shyness that would preclude a student from every speaking in a class should be dismissed with “well, that’s just the way she is” or “why do people have such a problem with introverts?” There is a difference between being a social butterfly and being able to negotiate normal social and professional interactions. Is your D going to be OK going on interviews? Speaking up in business meetings? Giving an occasional presentation at work? While there are jobs - librarian being one of them - where those things (except for the interview) might not be required, if the answer to these questions is “no,” I think you are talking about such a radically curtailed set of options that the introversion really is a serious drawback. Your mother is from a different generation and a different job-market; her experiences aren’t necessarily representative of the struggles your D might face, starting with having trouble getting recommendations. </p>
<p>It sounds like your D has problems other than shyness, and if you’ve tried psychologists and other professionals and nothing they’ve suggested does any good, then maybe there really isn’t much more that can be done. But if it even possible that there are things you haven’t tried because of a belief that there is nothing wrong with introversion and that you can’t change her personality, I think you do have to step back and ask yourself if this quality - or at least certain manifestations of it - is really as immutable, or as relatively harmless, as you’re suggesting. There is a huge difference between trying to change someone into an extrovert and working on strategies that would allow a painfully shy person to occasionally participate in class or visit a professor’s office hours. </p>
<p>Forgive me if I’m revealing my ignorance of the situation, but your posts seem to vacillate between “this is part of her disability and there is nothing we can do about it except try to cope,” which makes a lot of sense, and “what’s wrong with shyness?” which doesn’t, when that shyness is interfering with the student’s life in a material way.</p>
<p>Her shyness we accept; her increasing social phobia has to be remedied(it’s become more pronounced since junior year of high school). She got through a summer job before college as a restaurant hostess but really hated it – going through it didn’t seem to help change her in any way.</p>
<p>Her bipolar 2 she is under treatment for, and will always be, and has nothing to do with the shyness. Fortunately all colleges accomodate such disroders (social phobia, bipolar) by law but it is a real problem that she didn’t want to call attention to herself by processing the paperwork to the professors, for instance, and that we had to have the disabilities office do it. Sarah Lawrence services a good number of kids with such issues, and they do it expertly. For whatever reason, it wasn’t enough for my daughter.</p>
<p>I agree that the run of the mill shyness is one thing – and nothing will change it, and it’s a quality that should be welcome in our society – but that anything that keeps her from utilizing her very high IQ, writing talents, and keen philosophical insights is a big probem, and that thus far medication and the most expensive mental health professionals in the NY metro area (who, of course, don’t take insurance) have averted catastrophe, but haven’t really helped her utilize everything she has to offer.My point was that lots of personal attention and very small classes and the like was not right for this shy student, and for other shy students in other small schools, from what I know anecdotally.Large and impersonal may work for some shy students – we’ll see if it works for this one.</p>
<p>My3- don’t throw out the baby with the bath water. The solution to “Sarah Lawrence didn’t work for my kid” isn’t necessarily “Big and Impersonal is the way to go”. There are at least a dozen stops along the spectrum between SLC and NYU in terms of size, campus layout, personality, etc. and I would encourage you and your D to visit some of them before deciding that the idiosyncratic nature of SLC means that the only place your D will fit is a huge university. </p>
<p>My college roommate’s D who sounds a lot like your D is thriving at Goucher. I have a neighbor with a kid like your who loves Muhlenberg, and another kid (possibly with more ADHD type issues, but also some social phobias) who is doing well at Lawrence. If you need to keep it to the NY Metro, there is Barnard/Columbia and all the other known entities in NYC, plus Farleigh Dickinson, SUNY Purchase, etc. just over one or more bridges.</p>
<p>The issue with NYU is not just that it’s large and impersonal (which some kids love and some kids hate.) My own take is that a kid needs to be able to advocate for him or herself there to a much greater extent than at most colleges- whether they are the same size or smaller. I know a lot of kids at NYU and their parents claim (accurately or not, I’m sure some of it’s exxagerated a bit) that not a single semester goes by without some scheduling or transcript snafu. (how can a kid be assigned a psych lecture which ends ten minutes before a comp lit lecture when they are 14 blocks away from each other?) Mom can’t get on the phone with the folks who run scheduling to explain that although technically the classes don’t conflict (which is why the computer program allowed them both on the schedule) it is likely that the kid will be 10 minutes late for every single comp lit class due to the need to manage a 3/4 mile run to class, plus getting in and out of the buildings. The scheduling folks won’t talk to you. And even if they did… nothing will get results like a student standing with a sad face and a too tight schedule.</p>
<p>This is NYU. It’s not that it’s impersonal (and in many ways, I think it’s a pretty friendly place given its size). It’s that a kid needs to be able to be a little confrontational with authority very frequently in order to make the trains run on time. Classes. Pre-req’s. Even the bookstore.</p>
<p>I think there are places which will have fewer “out there and vocal” students but still have the ability to help your D navigate life with less angst than a place like NYU. Did you look at Macauley Honors??? Those kids are treated very, very well by faculty, administration, and looked up to by their peers.</p>
<p>I am only oinvestment.nd I’m sure it’s been said, but “shy” is not just one thing, and intoverted vs extroverted something else again.</p>
<p>My D (25) and I had an interesting discussion of this while she was here for Christmas, and it is good to see how far she has come in understanding herself, and how we are different, and that that’s okay. She went to the same school from age 3 to 18, where there were about 80 kids in her graduating class, then attended an “in your face” university of 5000. It was a rollercoaster (mostly down, then LESS down), and I’m not sure “we” would do it again, but she did grow from the education. So many therapists, over so many years, but it is a good investment.</p>
<p>My takeaway was that the kid has taken a medical withdrawal… thus would not be a transfer student since she has not completed a semester of college work.</p>
<p>OP- did your D withdraw (which was the word you used) or complete the semester and decided not to return? It will change some of the options…</p>
<p>My mom wanted me to go to Sarah Lawrence. She thought it would be great for shy me. I went to U.Michigan. 40k students. I loved being anonymous. I relished walking the campus without running into the “crowd” like in high school. I adored my lecture classes and the twice per semester tests. Labs were small and allowed a bit of community but not necessarily. I fit your exact question and yes yes yes, I was very happy at my giant U. I would have struggled mightily at the small quirky college with everyone in my business. Gives me the willies just thinking about it!</p>
<p>Don’t get me wrong - there were ppl around who called me “weird.” I was (and am) a particularly loner type. Happy alone in my room and unhappy if I don’t get a grand dose of that. A classic deep introvert. However once the babies came along I learned to step out of my shell for their sake and nowadays ppl are surprised to hear I am shy and an introvert. </p>
<p>I also had a nice social life in h.s. but was relieved in college to be able to give it a bit of a rest. I had a couple friends and that was plenty. I think your d. could thrive at the big U. Especially if she is in a program that allows some community if she wants it.</p>
<p>I was very, very shy. I did not have the luxury of choosing a school … I went to a school I could afford. It was very small, and I knew everyone/everyone knew me. It was the best thing that ever happened to me. People who didn’t know me then are shocked to learn that I was every “shy.”</p>
<p>I also know that I was fortunate. Not every shy kid thrives at a small school … or a large school. Not every not-shy kid thrives at a large school … or a small school. The point is, I am not sure that the fact the school is small is necessarily the issue. It just didn’t work, and it is time to try something else. Not sure there is a lesson in this that can be applied to any other situation.</p>
<p>Yes, my D did take a medical leave, and earned no credit. So she would not be considered a transfer. Right now she wants to live at home (1 hour outside Manhattan, near commuter train), so that does limit her to the NYC campuses, as well as Fairleigh Dickinson and Drew University (we are in the same county). She received a large merit scholarship to Drew when she applied in hs, but I’m afraid for her to try there now, because the honors college that accepted her offers small classes and mentorship (I think all their classes are small) and I’m afraid we’d be back to square one, even without the idiosyncratic reputation. I am considering having her start as a “visting” non-matriculated student somewhere and see how she likes it. NYU allows 3 consecutive semesters as a visiting student; Drew offers two. I really liked SUNY Purchase (she didn’t as much) but she’d have to live there and right now that’s out.</p>
<p>I so appreciate the support and especially stories from shy people who “get” that a lot of attention didn’t feel right to them. I really can’t relate to that personally, as I always dominated class discussions and loved personal chats with professors, though not a social butterfly with peers. I need to know more about how all this feels to my daughter – I hear her say it, but knowing others go through the same thing helps.</p>
<p>My DD ended up going to a big state school. She had a couple of incidents in her ultrasmall international high school where she was just bucking up against the system…the principal thought that a small school would be good for her…we disagreed and thought a large school where she could be more anonymous would be better for her and I think we were right!</p>
<p>My3Daughters, I hope your D finds a school that suits her better. Both of my kids transferred schools, although not for the reason your D is transferring. For both, the move was good for them. My best to you and your D as you work through this.</p>
<p>Thank you OP. This has been a very interesting topic. My DD '15 has a Verbal Retrieval LD, which means words just don’t come from her easily, or fluidly. For years her report cards would state that she needed to participate in class, and we would explain to teachers that she was just very shy. It wasn’t until H.S. freshman year educational testing that we learned it was an LD. That said, there have been some successful workarounds in H.S., because she goes to a very small H.S. and I meet with her teachers as a group at the start of each year to explain this LD and a few others. DD is bright and has some unique talents, and she should do well in one of many, many non-verbal jobs. We don’t know where she’ll end up going to college, but I do know she won’t be going to a college where an interview is necessary. I like the idea that someone suggested of going to a larger university, where there can be a smaller sub-community or “house”. We are just beginning our search this spring, and I have no idea of how she will react to different campuses–first up will be the University of Arizona and the SALT program. Good luck to your DD.</p>
<p>I am also a mom of a shy daughter. She thought she wanted a small suburban school close to home and ended up at a large urban school further from home and I am amazed at how well she has thrived there! I was prepared for the worst and am amazed at how well she is doing there, both socially and grade wise. There is always the right fit for our kids, it just may not be the one you are expecting!</p>
<p>I am late to this discussion, so my apologies if I repeat anything that’s been said already.</p>
<p>First, I find the title of the thread pretty unfortunate, to say the least. The OP’s daughter has a very specific and complex set of issues that have made her small college a poor fit for her. End of story. It is impossible to generalize from this one student’s experience at one LAC. And I know a student at SLC who shares many of the same attributes as the OP’s child and has found it life-changing. To each their own.</p>
<p>Second, I agree with rhandco on page 4 that maybe college is just not the right direction for this young woman. OP, you say…
</p>
<p>I would just offer a contrasting perspective. First, ANY selective college environment is going to have “highly vocal and opinionated classmates.” If it bothers her at a small school, imagine what it might be like at one in which people have to work much harder to stand out like that. In any case, I would rephrase your statement as follows:
</p>
<p>If she truly is a gifted writer/poet, she should be writing. If she is not going to seek out the typical worlds most college graduates do–entry-level jobs in business, law school, etc.–why not have her start pursuing her dreams now? If it’s too hard to completely pull the plug on college, perhaps just taking a few classes somewhere in the city (but without any pressure on graduating) while she takes things in and WRITES all she can might be a good direction for her.</p>
<p>I wish you both luck. It can’t be easy dealing with this.</p>