<p>^^I think they were deliberately too vague about the details of what actually happened for us to be able to apply any modern, legal definitions of rape. I think Marry was genuinely astonished and offended at Pamuk’s nerve and bad manners in sneaking into her room. But at the same time she was very smitten with him and the idea of being his lover.</p>
<p>True, but at what point did she have a chance to say no? We see the entire episode from him arriving in her room to their falling into bed, and I don’t see her ever having any choice.</p>
<p>Don’t forget the time frame. For an unmarried woman to spend any alone time with a man would be cause for scandal. </p>
<p>I am a little disappointed by season two. I am hopeful that all the setting-up that they are doing is for a reason. I felt that I was going back and forth between “WarHorse” and any one of Edith Wharton’s novels. Not that there’s anything wrong with that!</p>
<p>She doesn’t act as though he raped her, though. If he had, surely she would have said as much to her mother, because then her ‘shame’ wouldn’t have been quite so great.</p>
<p>I’m a college student, but I started watching the first season on Netflix last night and I am totally hooked. Unfortunately, I think I may have missed the first episode of Season 2, but it is definitely being TiVo’d so I can watch it when I come home some weekends.</p>
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<p>What does “act as though he raped her” mean in this context? What, in fact, would it mean in a modern context? </p>
<p>The more I think about it, the more I think he had sex with her (or did whatever sexual things he did, with no clothes on) without her consent. And that is rape.</p>
<p>But, for a more fun discussion, what should be the horrible ending for Mrs. Bates? Maybe Thomas could end up pushing her under a train? She needs to meet some dreadful fate.</p>
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<p>For a start, saying “he forced himself on me”, or words to that effect. I think that if Julian Fellowes had meant us to think she was raped, it would be clear. (Have you seen The Forsyte Saga, where Soames rapes his wife? It’s made very clear, and that was broadcast in the 1970s.)</p>
<p>But I agree with you about Mrs. Bates!</p>
<p>I thought Pamook was going to rape Mary and was watching very closely (scared). He coerced her certainly but in the end she started kissing him quite amorously. Her mother asked explicitly, did he force you - Mary said no. But the scene made me very uneasy because it was not at all clear that if Mary had tried to push him off that she would have succeeded.</p>
<p>I don’t care what Julian Fellowes may think is rape. I know what I think is rape, and a man who has sex with a woman without giving her a chance to say yes or no is raping her. Whether he uses force is inconsequential.</p>
<p>Here’s an interesting discussion of the topic: [Mary</a> & Pamuk: What Actually Happened?](<a href=“http://s15.invisionfree.com/downtonabbey/ar/t109.htm]Mary”>http://s15.invisionfree.com/downtonabbey/ar/t109.htm)</p>
<p>Thanks for that link Booklady!</p>
<p>If a man had sex with your daughter, in a situation in which she had no way to say no, no way to refuse, and she eventually stopped fighting back, would that be rape?</p>
<p>Rape? I don’t see how Mary was coerced. She could have screamed, whereupon Pamuk would have been removed from her room, disgraced, lost his position and been deported–I don’t see how her reputation would have been besmirched. I thought she was quite a willing (and thrilled) participant who figured no one would ever know. Maybe I’m not remembering the scene correctly?</p>
<p>Isn’t this situation essentially date rape?</p>
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<p>Now, that would be true. Then, she would have been embroiled in a huge scandal, and her name would have become a hissing and a byword.</p>
<p>I saw season 1 a while ago and LOVED it. Is there synopsis available? Would like to read it before jumping into season 2 as I am sure I don’t remember many nuances…</p>
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<p>IMO she acts more like she feels guilty and less like a wronged victim of a crime. Or if not exactly guilty then at least regretful about what happened - as though she believes she had made a foolish choice and now has to live with the consequences. </p>
<p>She appears to me to be thinking that she has messed up her own life rather than blaming Pamuk for messing it up for her.</p>
<p>But like I said, I think the show is being deliberately vague on the point. In any case, it is anachronistic to apply too vigorously the morals and definitions of our own century to a drama set a hundred years ago. Heck, the definition and application of the law concerning rape have evolved considerably just in my own adult lifetime. How much more have both social and legal norms changed since before WWI?</p>
<p>Kelowna, Wikipedia has a good summary of each episode: [url=<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downton_abbey_episodes]List”>List of Downton Abbey episodes - Wikipedia]List</a> of Downton Abbey episodes<a href=“but%20don’t%20scroll%20down%20to%20season%202%20if%20you%20don’t%20want%20to%20know!”>/url</a></p>
<p>And… what is going to happen with Mrs. Bates? I see her being hung by her own petard. I think she’ll die, as a result of one of her evil machinations. I don’t know how, but I see her as a deadster, a walking corpse.</p>
<p>Plus, at least one of the men in uniform will die. Can’t be Thomas because he’s back in England now, can’t be Matthew because he’s the hero, … William, come on down. Or Branson… why is he not in uniform? Or Moseley, if the draft board catches on to his draft dodging.</p>
<p>Thanks Booklady!</p>