@sherimba03 - Did your rising senior get offered a pre-read? Usually, they are offered by the coaches for their recruits. Although MIT doesn’t do this as far as I’m aware. So I don’t know about U Chicago
If you are interested in public prestige, you should skip UChicago as well (I have a child there). But you should get over that because among people that matter, such as future employers, everyone knows the quality of UChicago, or Williams, or Amherst …
The reason not to choose UChicago is again due to academic intensity and grade deflation. If you compare median GPAs, at Brown it is above 3.7, whereas at UChicago it is about 3.4. This matters a great deal for medical school acceptance.
All of the ivies and most selective D3 LACs get many many more applicants with excellent stats (like your D’s) than they can admit. High school valedictorians and perfect test scores are, for them, a dime a dozen. And lots of them plan to be pre-med. It is really hard to stand out in that company.
If a coach is willing to support your application at one of those schools and say “out of all these amazing applicants, take this one”, that’s gold!
If your D loves one of the schools that is willing to bump her to the front of the line, go for it.
Fwiw, I love the LAC experience for undergraduates. If she goes to med school as planned, she’ll have the other, bigger school experience as well.
@sherimba03
The top recruited UChicago athletes can get these likely letters (they don’t just say likely to get admitted, they say as long as your academic performance is maintained you will be admitted during the ED1 process; hence they are early writes). This letter is from the admissions office.
UChicago does not do pre reads (which are only based on transcript and SAT/ACT and nothing official comes back from a pre read to the athlete just the coach.) You still wonder after a pre read whether you will be admitted so you have to trust the coach.
Ask the UChicago coach whether you can receive the likely letter. If they are supporting your athlete to that extent they will ask that you submit your full application by October 1 (essays, recommendations, transcript, etc. everything!). The coach then verifies you will accept the offer and ED1 there. If you commit, you change your app status to ED1 if you haven’t already, two weeks or so later you hopefully receive the likely letter. (If you don’t you can always change your app status back to RD or whatever but I’ve never heard of a problem).
Note, not sure how many of these “slots” the coach has by sport. Obviously the student needs to be UChicago caliber.
Far more certain than a NESCAC. More like Yale.
@hegebege
If you mean “person on the street” recognition of UChicago then sure. People still don’t all know Stanford too.
But for all practical purposes, every relevant person as you point out the student will encounter knows UChicago. UChicago’s grad schools are exceptional and world class. Their undergrad always was excellent but they have really focused on it now attracting a far more statistically accomplished class. Size of undergrad substantially expanded, much money invested in new dorms, performing arts, athletic facilities, etc. Different student class compositions.
As for gpa deflation, that is a myth now as far as I can tell. Yes pre meds obsess over this and feel that’s all med schools care about, as if they blindly say one gpa is as good as another. Maybe Brown is easier and Princeton/John Hopkins harder? Who knows? The education at UChicago though will be superb as it many others schools.
@MrsJayBird not trying to detract from your thread, but yes I think he got offered a pre-read? The coach didn’t use that term, to my knowledge. He just said that he really liked DS21 as a player (based only on film due to covid, sadly), that his academics were at/above what was needed for admission, and that he would support DS21 through the admissions process. And then he “liked” the Tweet DS21 posted about it (don’t know about other sports but it’s all the rage for football players to tweet about offers and offers of support (D1 vs D3) when they receive them).
MIT doesn’t do pre-reads. They told us that they’ll decide by the end of the summer who is “on the board” and they’ll give those names to the admissions office, and that raises your chances of acceptance at MIT from 6% to 50%.
@arbitrary99 thanks for the explanation. So, we are not able to do ED as we don’t know whether DS21’s father will be helping pay for college and without that support, but having to show his income on our financial aid application, it will be unlikely we can afford the cost of attendance. Since it seems based on your explanation that these likely letters are only associated with ED, guess that excludes our family. Thanks again for the great info!
ED’s aren’t binding if the family can’t afford the college with the offered financial aid package. Consequently I still would apply ED if offered. Perhaps explain to the coach. Don’t be discouraged by that. Perhaps others can help here more as we weren’t seeking financial aid.
@sherimba03, it is fairly well known that Chicago and MIT coaches don’t have a lot of pull with admissions. MIT doesn’t do pre-reads. Chicago does give a very limited number of likely letters (approx. 2 per team). The consequence of this arrangement is that both schools over-recruit. By way of example, the recruiting list at Chicago may be 20-25 recruits long. While the first two may receive likely letters, there is little comfort for the others on the list.
@gointhruaphase I think I am going to quibble, slightly, with your statement that “…Chicago and MIT coaches don’t have a lot of pull with admissions.” I totally agree that they have much less pull than at most other schools. However, I just checked College Navigator’s admissions data for MIT and for the Fall 2019 class, only 5% of male applicants were admitted. The MIT head football coach presented a slide during his Junior Recruiting Day Zoom meeting that states if you are strongly supported by the team, your chances of admission are 50/50.
Of course, a coin-flip is definitely not optimal. However, it’s a darned sight better than 5%! So there is something meaningful that comes with the head football coach saying “I want this kid” as a way to set him apart from the many thousands of other applicants with perfect GPAs, highly rigorous classes, impressive ECs, and a perfect or near perfect SAT.
@arbitrary99 thank you, I think DS21 might just end up applying ED to MIT after all. If his father pitches in half, or even close to half, then I can make the numbers work even without any aid.
@sherimba03, I agree that we are parsing language here. Support means far more, by way of example, in NESCAC schools, where it probably increases the likelihood of admission from 9-30% to say 90%.
Take a look at https://trackyack.com/2018/02/01/mits-head-coach-halston-taylor-join-nescac-mit-recruiting-standards-dance-weddings/
Note that the MIT T & F coach is quoted as saying, “We have no picks, slots, or likely letter possibilities. We do not even have legacy options. With that said, admissions does try to help, but only when the academic criteria is met.” and “Because we have no early reads and no slots we have to recruit high volume to hope and get a reasonable number when all is said and done.”
To me, over-recruiting (or recruiting a “high volume”) means that you don’t have a lot of pull with admissions, but perhaps we are in reality saying the same thing.
My understanding from what the MIT and Caltech baseball coaches and Caltech AD told us was that they could submit a support letter to the AO. With S’s transcript and scores, all comfortably within the schools’ median, he was 50/50, which looks consistent with other posters’ experience.
In terms of ED’ing a “sure” thing vs applying without support to an Ivy, S chose the latter for the following reasons. While he enjoyed playing baseball, it was not an all consuming passion to play at the next level. After his visits to 5 D3’s where he was offered full support, he felt he wanted a larger campus experience. He also by the time of the ED/SCEA deadline had admissions to our state flagship’s honor program secured. Academically, with the exception MIT and Caltech, while the other schools (T5 LAC’s) were “reaches”, we felt he had a decent chance in the RD round. He also was very upfront with all the coaches when he made his decision, which was several weeks ahead of the deadline so the coaches could move down their lists. The coaches all told him to let them know if his SCEA choice fell through and to recontact them at that time. If those factors had not all been in place, S could have easily made a different decision.
I agree with you about the 50/50 gamble with MIT. For my D, she decided it was more important for her to be a student athlete at a D3 LAC, than to give up her 90+% chance of attending that school for a 50% chance that she would end up at a UC, possibly not doing her sport.
I mention UC because we are in California and they don’t require an ED application and my D’s stats give her a good chance of getting into at least a middle tier UC. If she were thrilled about attending a UC as a “backup”, with or without her sport, I think the 50-50 gamble for MIT would have been worth the try.
Some great responses. I’d agree with love the one that loves you.
Re: MIT. They do NOT have coaches involved in the admissions process and that is clearly cited on their page.
OP, I was confused having D1 range scores and being at the top end/national in their event is VERY different. Coaches at these schools are looking for the top of the range who can academically do the work.
The top LACs can be a great path to Med school. Someone mentioned don’t go to MIT because one’s GPA might be lower. That’s insane. Some kids do awesome at MIT. And she might change direction and not even be interested in medicine in a few years. The thing is to know where you belong.
OP, the name recognition is real but unimportant relative to other factors. That said Ivies are known for very good aid and many liberal arts schools may/may not be as generous.
She might want to be done with the process but that will close certain doors. If she’s top of the top, I might advise one path vs. a top student in the Div. 1 range with more competition. Have you spoken to her coach/guidance dept about what they think her chances are? Also, do you know if her high school regularly sends kids to top LAcs or Ivies? If they have experience they can help advise.
^ on MIT and the role of coaches, it’s true that coaches aren’t involved with admissions in the sense of dictating who is admitted. But they do have the ability to advocate for athletes, and admissions considers that input. What others have mentioned, that it improves the odds to a coin flip or 50/50, seems about right to me. It’s not as much influence or as predictable as an Ivy but it’s not zero influence either.
It’s possible this varies by sport. MIT was 2nd at nationals in Men’s Track last year. That doesn’t happen just from looking at SAT scores and grades. I assume, but don’t know, that they don’t leave having a quarterback or GK completely up to chance. So athletics clearly has some influence assuming the academic criteria are met. It’s just a bigger gamble for most athletes than schools with more formal and predictable systems in place.
@politeperson Well, you might have more recent direct experience than I do. But there are many capable athletes for whom athletics and academics are both stellar. They recruit nationally and even have international candidates. They get to pick from that group. Many top kids want to attend HYPS &/MIT. So that’s the top group. Easily happens that there are kids who own the field and classroom. You can also find these kids at any school where the acceptance rate is super low. All they need is a handful of kids. And it’s not just SAT scores and grades. It’s ability, SAT scores, grades and athletics. Some even play more than 1 sport.
I’d believe that there could be a discussion or letter or email sent to support the candidacy but it’s not going to get you into MIT unless you really belong there. I would seriously doubt it’s a 50/50. Perhaps someone who attends MIT and was a recent applicant could share details.
Many track and field kids are also hyper-competitive by nature. If you aren’t you don’t win. MIT isn’t going to pick the kid who came in 239nd place in a race or 239th in a science fair. They don’t have to, they have their pick.
I checked the Ivy League T&F recruiting standards and my D is right at the minimum. But we definitely can’t see her being a national contender which is probably why HYPS coaches have ignored her.
Does anyone know what percentage of the T&F team at Ivy Leagues are recruited vs walk-ons? My D is high above the walk-on standards. Her PR achieved last season (wasn’t able to compete this season) would have allowed her to score some points at some smaller meets.
Anyway, she decided to accept the spot offered to her by her first choice LAC. The advice “Love the one that loves you” really resonated with her.
Unless you need a more affordable option, which you would get from your instate UC, I can’t imagine why a kid who loves LACs is even interested in a UC. A top LAC is hardly a poor second to an Ivy League, MIT, CalTech or any UC. I confess that I am having a hard time understanding why your D is considering MIT.
Edit: I just saw the response in post #36.
Hiring managers and med school AOs are well aware of all of these schools. If med school is in the cards for her, they care about her GPA, her MCAT, her recommendations and her experience. They won’t care a fig if she attends Harvard or Amherst or maybe not even Podunk State U. She should go to the school where she will be happy and do well.
@MrsJayBird it sounds to me like your daughter made the right decision with the LAC.
But in response to your question about Ivies, I’d say the coaches are probably supporting anywhere from 12-15 recruits a year in Track, give or take. The recruited athletes are usually the ones featured in the annual recruiting announcement, such as this:
Checking the performance lists on tfrrs.org can give you an idea of what they’re looking for. But the coaches know better than anyone, so if they’re not responding that’s a sign. And it isn’t always about the marks. It can be as simple as there’s a nearby athlete in the same event that’s been convenient for the coach to watch and so there’s already a relationship.
@Happytimes2001 I’m not sure we disagree too much. I certainly agree athletes can be great students too, and track athletes in particular. But I do think, based on discussions with student athletes who were recruited by MIT, as well as with the track coach, that the coaches are able to boost a limited number of recruits a decent amount. Whether that raises it to 50/50 or some other number I don’t really know. Recruits I’ve talked to have said they were told it’s a coin flip, although one very good athlete who ended up at an Ivy was told the odds were better than that with coach support. Still, in my experience recruits who have other great options with a higher degree of certainty, they’ve usually felt that the opportunity cost was too high to gamble on MIT.