@Pizzagirl ,
I can’t tell if your comment was directed at me.
No one disputes that divorce frequently brings out the worse in people, or exacerbates what an individual’s malignant personality traits.
The fact that divorcing spouses wage monetary warfare isn’t surprising. That their children are unintended victims should, but doesn’t, factor in just demonstrates how irrational people get in their zeal to win.
What is in contention is whether it is reasonable to expect either party to produce or recall what a CC charge from 13 years ago was for. What’s good for the gander can be used against the goose. I’m sure the husband’s attorney knows that quite well, and he can request that she also produce information from that far back. One salvo deserves another. Tit for tat.
If one doesn’t have the records to produce, or the CC company doesn’t have them any longer, the answer is quite simple.
Be happy that all this involves is time and money. I know people who should have gotten divorce and one or both spouses were killed because of it. Made the NYT in one case… Divorce is a much better alternative than the kids having to go to one or two funerals.
Yeah, it sucks, but getting divorced sucks. And note that some of the things you list are EXACTLY the things that an executor will do in terms of “money lent” by the deceased to the heirs. Like, I used to spend $50 to buy groceries for my aunt every few weeks, and she gave me $200 in a check one time, so they are bringing up the $200 check without me having proof that I bought her groceries many many times. Every time there was a check with one of our names on it (something like 10 each over the past 20 years), we got a request for information and documents supporting that they were not loans.
Lawyers stink. I hope one of my kids becomes one and brings home the dough on other people’s backs…
It is not always as simple as applying the formulas, unfortunately. Even things that are in plain view can complicate this. Is something that currently has no monetary value an asset? If it is, is it marital property or not? Take stock options and grants. These are things that may materialize as $$ at some point in the future - they come with strings attached, and quite often stock plan agreements come with verbiage that options/grants may not be transferred under any circumstances until they vest. The parties may devise a trust of some sort to guarantree that the division does happen after vesting, but there is another complicating issue. Were these grants/options given as a reward for past performance or as a retaining instrument to guarantee that the employee stays on the job? In the latter case, there are arguments that the asset is not marital, because it will be acquired after the divorce. (I am not a lawyer, but I have done an extensive research of this subject for a friend… It can be a lucrative “niche” practice for a divorce attorney practicing in the states where such compensation is common).
If someone mentioned a cc charge from 13 years ago… I am positive that someone has a record of that charge.
Is this the guy that is $20 million rich and drinks $900 bottle wine when he goes out to a casual dinner? If I were his wife I would go after him. He seems to have expensive taste.
“What is in contention is whether it is reasonable to expect either party to produce or recall what a CC charge from 13 years ago was for. What’s good for the gander can be used against the goose. I’m sure the husband’s attorney knows that quite well, and he can request that she also produce information from that far back. One salvo deserves another. Tit for tat.”
I was interpreting this as - someone has a copy of a credit card bill from Sep 2002 (or whatever) and amidst all the flotsam and jetsam of gas and grocery store and drycleaning charges, there is something that isn’t easily explainable - an expensive restaurant, a jewelry store that doesn’t correspond to anything the wife received as a gift, a hotel bill, etc. IOW, the credit card bill has been already secured / produced by someone, presumably the wife or someone on her end. I interpreted this as - there are very specific credit card charges which are already “public” that he is being asked to explain. Not that the attorney is asking him to recall out of thin air everything he spent money on in Sep 2002, which obviously no one could do. Am I misinterpreting?
And yes, of course if I thought my H was having a long-standing affair I’d get all copies of credit card statements during that time and highlight anything that looked odd. That just seems like common sense to me! (Of course, I would like to hope that my H wouldn’t be so blitheringly stupid as to put “obvious” signs on a credit card – I mean, it’s just not very bright to stick on the No-Tell Motel and Victoria’s Secret on the credit card; haven’t you people ever heard of cash? LOL.)
“A friend of mine is getting divorced. He had a business overseas. He is accused by his wife of taking family money and spending the money on his girl friend. She says the overseas business was a sham. A cover so he could take family money and invest the money overseas for himself and his girl friend. Depositions were taken. Overseas business tax returns were given to the wife’s lawyers. Invoices match the returns.”
BTW, do NOT underestimate how clever people can be in hiding assets and dummying up fake returns, etc.
Consider your sister very fortunate. I don’t think this result is typical.
Here we are talking about credit card statements… I know someone who closed out the bank account and took out travelers checks in the balance amount. Fortunately the travelers checks were found and redeposited. Some receipts were found in traveling bags for items bought with cash that suggested cheating.
What makes matters worse is when the one planning on the divorce starts preparing (hiding assets) before actually filing leaving the other spouse totally unprepared when financial transactions to empty accounts have taken place before hand. The one mentally prepared for filing a divorce knows what they are doing while the other one is caught off guard when most of the damage is done. Have seen situations where a spouse files for divorce as soon as they get their greencard. In another situation a man transferred his parents home that he had inherited to his brother. After the divorce he is now fighting his brother to get him to sign over the home back to him.
“He got two answers which he believed answered the question: the wife doesn’t want the GF to get any of the funds so use the funds up now and the other was to fully participate in the discovery so it doesn’t appear you are hiding anything.”
That doesn’t make any sense. Why would the wife whittle the pool of assets down? That just hurts her.
@AttorneyMother - of course it depends on the civil procedure rules in your state. You generally only have to produce what is in your care and control. If you no longer have the records, then the other side will have to attempt to get them directly from the cc company. You can’t be expected to produce what you don’t have. In the state I practice there is no time limit on how far back you can request documents. However, for most financial documents when you go too far back you are simply looking at marital spending, marital debt, etc. In most cases you really only want the picture of what was happening in the last few years. Sometimes there may be an asset (like a second home) that one party was putting more than the fair share of time and money into. That will require some “tracing” of assets and usually will need documents from farther back in time.
“Consider your sister very fortunate. I don’t think this result is typical.”
She was fortunate. She also had the wherewithal to hired a Park Avenue divorce attorney immediately (the next day) who told her what things to do and what things not to do - like don’t go get a job and don’t change your lifestyle one bit - things I think most people in her situation think they should do - when in fact it can hurt them in the settlement. So she kept right on spending and sent him all the bills - even the ones in her name. She also lucked out because it was obvious her ex refused to listen to his attorney.
He was also one who had been planning for quite a while. Already had an apt. in the city.
Thanks. I know it depends on each state. And, I know someone has the CC receipt or statement, or the request would not be so specific (assuming dstark was not asking rhetorically).
Discovery is going to be sweeping. But, a good attorney will either respond in kind or be able to block. And the legal fees will keep rising.
Tracing assets and income is one thing. Partitioning assets and debts is another thing. Looking for a tell-tale expense of misspent funds as proof of marital wrongdoing is entirely different. Bringing up a CC charge from 2002 suggests that the divorce may be 13 years in the making or overdue.
As for planning, I am frequently being reminded that certain financial moves protect against “spouses and creditors” when conveying or settling assets, including to one’s child. It’s a mindset.
Emilybee- a good attorney can make a world of difference. Especially one really dedicated to looking out for your best interest.
Advice to our kids. Times have changed and things are different. Go into marriage hoping for the best but be prepared for the worst. Be aware of finances and where money is being spent. Also be aware of the divorce and settlement rules in your state. Better to be safe then sorry especially when there are kids involved. Getting divorced while children are still minors is a lot different than when the children are grown up and in or out of college. Possibly get a consultation with an attorney prior to getting married. No one wants to go into marriage thinking like that but today where half of the marriages are ending in divorce it is good to be mentally prepared and think about these things beforehand because when you are actually going through it no one can think straight. For those going through a divorce it is nice to have a good friend who is rational to talk things out and to help make proper decisions to protect yourself and the kids rather than making emotional decisions. When making legal decisions think short term and long term of their implications. I’m sure there must be some good books out there which would make good reads on this subject.
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What is in contention is whether it is reasonable to expect either party to produce or recall what a CC charge from 13 years ago was for.
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Well…that’s debatable.
Certainly, it would be hard to remember a restaurant charge from your own hometown. However, if someone asked me, "hey, what is this hotel charge from New York in spring 2002, I would know…that’s when I visited the area the 9/11 area with my family. "
It sounds like dstark’s friend was able to keep some business CC charges/expenses out of the view of his wife for many years, so now they’re asking about anything that looks like it was possibly “extracurricular”.
"A friend of mine is getting divorced. He had a business overseas. He is accused by his wife of taking family money and spending the money on his girl friend. She says the overseas business was a sham. A cover so he could take family money and invest the money overseas for himself and his girl friend. Depositions were taken. Overseas business tax returns were given to the wife's lawyers. Invoices match the returns."
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BTW, do NOT underestimate how clever people can be in hiding assets and dummying up fake returns, etc.
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Exactly. That is why I am hoping that this thread has put a bug in dear dstark’s ear that everyone isn’t like him (he likely would never do any of this @#$%).
There is a very good chance that this friend is guilty of all sorts of “games.” After all, someone who has the low-ethics to engage in an affair, particularly a long-term one, doesn’t have the moral code not to be sneaky with money as well.
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“He got two answers which he believed answered the question: the wife doesn’t want the GF to get any of the funds so use the funds up now and the other was to fully participate in the discovery so it doesn’t appear you are hiding anything.”
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That doesn’t make any sense. Why would the wife whittle the pool of assets down? That just hurts her.
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It may not seem to make sense at first glance, but this sort of thing happens often and it can make “sense” in some ways:
The wife may feel that she can (by herself) live comfortably on whatever half she does end up with, but is hoping that the “sweet young thing with champagne taste” and her ex will be miserable trying to live on a similar amount.
She may have another source of income/assets (maybe a protected inheritance or a future inheritance). As long as a received inheritance is kept cleanly separated from marital assets, it is not split in a divorce.
Her children may have told her that she can live with them or be supported by them.
There are a variety of scenarios where an angry woman would want to “destroy” a good bit of their assets just so that the ex and the new honey don’t have the cushy life they’re expecting.
For some women, given a choice between watching her ex and his “arm candy” live a lavish lifestyle and show up to future family events looking victorious, and destroying excess wealth so that each is left with only enough for each spouse to live ok, but not enough for any “new spouse,”…many women will choose the latter.
I don’t know how much that is, but for talking purposes, let’s say that splitting $4M between 2 people may be enough for each person to live “ok,” but not enough for the new honey to enjoy the riches.
In the vast majority of divorces, the court is not going to look back 10-15 years to see if the wife spent too much on shopping or the husband took one too many boys weekends that really weren’t with the boys. Most states have no fault divorce, so there is no need to prove an affair. The court can’t replace money that was wasted over the years, and usually there is a lot of waste on both sides. Most settlements are dealing with current assets, particularly pension and retirement funds, second homes, etc. A receipt from 15 year ago could lead to hidden funds, but the court doesn’t really care that ex had dinner in Mexico or who the dinner was with. If the ex gave the GF a condo, then yes, the court might bring that back into the estate, but rarely are they going to care (at least on the record) that he took her on a vacation.
Of course the majority of divorces involve not having enough money, not how to divide too much money.
I don’t know but if my kids are rich, I tell them to skip marriage. I read a joke on Facebook that getting married is like adopting an adult child that his parents have kicked him out.
I’ve begged my children to never get married. I told them it will be easier to deal with their own problems then to have to deal with a spouse they can’t evade.
