"Famous Quotes, the Way a Woman Would Have to Say Them During a Meeting"

Parent Cafe
41

^^ Mom… too true! I have seen too many times when a group of women are together than we must be gossiping.

The other comments here about tone of voice coming from men vs. women and different responses are also true. I have always worked in male dominated work environments and have found that when I use the same tone/sayings/verbiage as my male counterparts, I get the “hey, you don’t need to be so mean” type comments. When I bring up the fact hat I’m saying the same thing as Jim or Bob, there are denials around the room.

When I have problems with the men I work with, I usually tell them that I know their delicate sensibilities makes it hard for them to work around strong women but they must learn how to “keep their chin up” and work through the pain. :wink:

I find it very frustrating because I am a tell it like it is person, that sometimes lacks tact (okay…a lot of times I lack tact). I have had conversations with guys I work with and when they try to call me out for doing something that their male friends do all the time, I call them out for their double standards. Which also leads me to making a snarky comment, but that’s what they get. I go with the idea of they need to deal with it as it’s not my problem.

Luckily, as far as pay goes, I make just as much if not more than most of my counterparts; but that is due to me working for the federal government as it’s a great pay equalizer.

I do think that as long as women continue being indirect, we’ll have this problem. We need to own it and step up, while at the same time train these men on how we want to be treated in the workplace.

42

I struggle with how to coach my own Ds on this.

43

Unfortunately (or fortunately), my D goes to H when she needs sympathy or compassion. She gets a lot of “suck it up” from me. I know how hard it is and it’s okay to be soft, but not when you are working around men. I tell both my kids (D and S) that you need to treat people how you want to be treated, you need to listen to people the way you’d like them to listen to you. And most importantly, you need to tell people when they do something that bothers you and not hold it in otherwise you are the only one to blame. Most people do not have ESP and don’t know what you are thinking (which is a good thing, sometimes). :wink:

44

I don’t have daughters, but if I did, I probably would say…

While you’re a newbie and “proving yourself,” you have to play the game. If you get labeled as a witch early on you may stagnate, or worse, get laid-off the moment the company has the opportunity. Once you’re in management, then some of the gloves can come off.

45

I said lots of things, but it boiled down to keep your eye on the ball. Know the company’s goals, values, and your role in reaching them. Don’t take long lunches unless the boss is taking you. (Pretty close to my college advice.)

Seriously, I also said: you have two jobs, to do your job and to build your rep.

46

Bottom line, during my career I worked much harder than a lot of my male coworkers. It at least partially protected me despite being labeled a b-witch at times for the type of directness and the double standard we are discussing here. My reviews would ebb and flow depending on my male boss at the time and how “enlightened” he was. In my 23 year career, I had at least 15 direct report bosses and none of them were female.

47

This has been a part of my whole life. My Grandmother was a suffragette. My working mom was denied a credit card in her name only w/o her H’s financial details. She fought this and won. This was for a Credit Card at Wannamakers in NYC.

I personally experienced a job offer for a Manager of Marketing when my male predesessor was called a Director of Marketing. Very different levels in management hierarchy. But I fought it and won, given it was the exact same job as the former Director of Marketinpg. But at first I was going to let it go. I thought about it, and challenged it. I was named Director.

D1 is a trader in the finance world. This profession is very high percentage male. She is the only female trader on her desk. She is a feminist with a thick skin. So far she is doing very well. She has learned not to say, excuse me but I need to , or I am sorry but I think, or I appreciate what you are saying, etc, etc. she has developed a thick skin. Much needed thick skin.

48

I have never worked in a place where male managers could get away with direct orders without any subtlety or charm.

One problem, seriously, with a lot of women managers is that they try to adopt what they think is a direct no-nonsense persona, but they lack the humor and occasional self-deprecation of a more popular male manager.

A lot of behavior that gets a woman called a bh would just the same get a man called a pk.

49

The “female” non-confrontive approach works better in doing business in Asia. At the other end of the spectrum are the Dutch. They’re blunt to a fault.

50

I agree with @sorghum. If being assertive and direct is not natural, it’s very hard to act that way without the acting being too obvious. Women who try can sometimes come off as brittle. It can be easier to do if women take the same approach as comes naturally, but simply try to reduce the number of words they use. That comes across better because they’re not trying to dress up in someone else’s clothes.

BTW I read Tannen’s article and thought it was fascinating and at first I was very impressed. But after more thought, I began to be more critical. She didn’t reconcile for me two separate points. On the one hand she said men judged women based on men’s communication styles, e.g., if a women was too apologetic they were viewed as ineffective. However on the other hand she wrote that if a woman did speak as forcefully and directly as a man would, she’s seen as bitchy. That didn’t make sense. If the men were assuming all people speak the way they do, they wouldn’t be so put off by a woman speaking that way. I tend to think it’s just pure sexism: the men she interviewed first look at a woman as a woman, and start out assuming they are either weak or strident.

51

I emailed my husband and he wrote back:

<<<Here’s my response:

JENNIFER – YOU ARE SUCH A SMART ASS!!! WHAT A TROUBLE MAKER!!!

Best regards,
Mr. MaineLonghorn

PS Anyone know any good hotels where I could be staying the next few nights???>>>

52

H is very much equal pay for equal work. He is in engineering, and has always been very concerned that he treats the few female colleagues as he would male colleagues and also not say or do anything that may offend. He runs things by me - work situations and conversations.

A friend who worked for the gov’t in an engineering position won a discrimination lawsuit - she found out her peer male, who took on a lot less training and projects continued to get higher levels of pay over a number of years. She won $$$ and the law suit, but it put a lot of extra stress in the work env’t - she hung in - don’t know details on the boss. She said if she had to do it over, not sure she would take it on again.

53

I was lucky to begin in my field at a tech start-up, where the focus was on the goals and the men (5 co-owners) were amazing, open, supportive, and willing to pay based on what a person deserved. You didn’t keep up? You didn’t see it. I know there is inequity. I know it’s bad and documented, in some cases. But I think women benefit from trying to explore what reasons they may have some control over. Or be willing to move on, to better circumstances.

Since my twenties, I knew it was still “a man’s world.” They were the ones who ran the show, for generations. That’s not an excuse for why it should be. It’s one reason we need to be willing to adapt, while we try to change things.

I agree the Tannen article raises some questions, Hayden. I thought some of that was how old it is and how she was so pressing her point at the time. I agree with sorghum in the sense that we aren’t “there” yet. Some of this is more than who’s labeled a B or a gossip and who’s just mired in sexism. We all change this together or we don’t get far. For most of us here, we were/are still trailblazers. And, role models for the next two generations.

54

NASA and the gov’t in the early 1960’s had a separate wage scale for women and men (at least in technical fields) - I know a gal whose H died; her boss told her to resign and use her initials on her resume so he could hire her under the male pay scale! True story. She eventually had 3 technical master’s degrees; was willing to move for the job and did well.

55

I’ve probably shared the story about what happened when I was in grad school and accompanied my dad on a site visit to inspect a building. Another engineer smiled at me and said, “Are you Daddy’s little helper?” I smiled back and said, “Yes, I’m working on my master’s degree in structural engineering!” That shut him up fast. You just know he wouldn’t have said that if it had been a son accompanying his dad.

56

I would rather be occasionally referred to as a bitch who people take seriously than dismissed as irrelevant when trying to make a point. I am usually nice and even keel in my job but sometimes it requires a firmer voice. I deal with felonies so things can get pretty crazy.

57

It makes sense to me. There are two sets of social standards here, a business effectiveness standard and a gender standard. The business standard says that to be effective, a person must be forceful, assertive and direct. The gender standard says that men should be direct, whereas women should be apologetic and deferential.

So a businessman who states his view openly and forcefully is masculine, manly and strong. A business woman who states her view openly and forcefully is unfeminine and b****y. For him, the standards align. For her, the standards conflict, and there is no way to satisfy both of them.

58

Re post #47, in my experience, p*s get promoted, but b**s don’t.

59

I don’t doubt that women experience problems when managing, in many ways they are still between a rock and a hard place. Women are still taught (or they catch) gender roles where it is taboo to be straight about things, that instead of phrasing things as “that is wrong”, it is couched as “I may be wrong, but to me it looks like X is wrong”. It comes off as a lot less strong, yet to more than a few people it comes off as waffling, as being indecisive. Yet if the woman in question said “That is wrong, it needs to be fixed, and soon”, there will be those who get insulted that she was direct (and true). I can’t blame women who have trouble figuring out which way to go, because in some cases it looks like you lose either way, either you are ‘nice’ (but therefore indecisive), or you are a cold hearted B ‘trying to be like the boys’. I will add that sometimes the women managers I have worked beside or for in modelling behavior chose to model male managers of the worst sort, the one that would be called “Ps” by those who worked for them, assuming that would gain them respect (it doesn’t, any more than it did the model).

Men still have an advantage with that, because men can use both techniques, at times he can be forceful, and say “that is wrong, this is right, this is what we are doing” when he feels strongly, at other times he can say “you know, this looks wrong to me, but what does everyone else think?” and it won’t come off as soft. Just my opinion, but I think that when women can do both, where they can be forceful when need be, and at other times be conciliatory/consensus building…which means also that both men (and women, I might add) will have to understand that a woman being forceful and direct is not necessarily mean, nor is consensus building in other cases not weak. I hate to say this, but some of the biggest complainers about women being B’s are women working for them IME, that if a woman isn’t the consensus builder/conciliatory figure, they get their nose bent out of joint as much or more than men do.

I think some of this is going to change because these days careers and such are more and more not in the corporate hierarchical world, the traditional big business/blue suit model that so many companies still follow, having worked in startups where there isn’t time or inclination for hierarchy like that, the women I worked with didn’t have the problems they did in the ‘big business’ places I have worked. Hopefully when these start ups grow into successful businesses and/or get swallowed up by corporate giants, the women who work there won’t find it is back to the corporate, all male crap.

60

There’s an infuriating corollary to the ‘say it extra nicely’ problem, and that’s the ‘say it with a smile’ (actually do everything with a smile) problem. Also known as “RBF.”