<p>I was surprised to hear from my D at UCLA that so far about 15 of the 65 freshman who started the UCLA Theater program this year have decide to leave the program.
I find this to be a surprisingly high number! It works out to be about 23%.
Apparently this is expected by the UCLA TFT faculty, some years less and some years about this amount. These are students who have decided after only one or two quarters that the program is not for them.
I’m surprised simply because this, like so many other programs, is so difficult to get into that one would think that having made the effort to get there a student would know what it is they are getting into and would be so sure that this is really what they want.
So… I was wondering if there is a similar drop out phenomenon from any of the other programs, BFA or BA?
Thanks to all who reply and for those of you trying to decide where to go, just remember that while there is no fool proof way of deciding, you should make every effort to validate your final decision.</p>
<p>While that percentage is indeed high, I have known at most BFA programs for some students to switch out of it after a year or so. There are likely many reasons but one is that they really don’t always know what it is they are getting into until they do it and perhaps did not fully explore the intensity of these programs beforehand to know if this was right for them. And some have to experience it too, in order to realize it. It is a commitment to a field and a program and they may not have been truly ready to commit, as many college freshmen who enter college are not.</p>
<p>Also might have something to do with the increase in tuition. isn’t it something like a 33% increase for UCLA? We know a student withdrawing this year from UCI and it is mainly due to the UC system tuition increases. As a parent I would find it hard to find, after a year, that tuition had jumped so drastically. Perhaps even a lot of commitment to theater isn’t enough to justify spending another $10,000 or so per year.</p>
<p>Maybe this justifies some of the ways some schools do things that often get reamed on these pages. Lately in compiling our college lists we’ve found quite a number of schools that progress to the BFA only after completing the first year or two. DePaul has been criticized here for “cutting” students by audition; I think it is a shame that students would be excluded from a program that they otherwise want to continue, just because of the judgement of the professors. But I’m wondering if a school like Hofstra, Columbia College in Chicago, and the University of Wisconsin in Milwaukee might be just the ticket for a student who needs to learn by experiencing just what level of intensity they want. I appreciate that these programs allow students to continue in the BA if they either don’t make the BFA or choose not to pursue it after all.</p>
<p>It saddens me if these decisions are financial, although certainly that will always be an issue as long as colleges charge tuition and jobs in so many fields are not guaranteed.</p>
<p>Another thing to take into account is that UCLA’s first year in the BA Acting program involves hardly any actual training. It’s called the “freshman experience” and allows students to get there GE’s out of the way. That first year may be a huge disappointment to avid theatre kids like myself who are chomping at the bit for some training. Just a thought…</p>
<p>Reality check: It is easier to get into certain universities if you are an art(s) major. D’s friend got into a UCLA program (art) with the minimum gpa, and decent scores. Nothing stellar. So, sometimes the major is a device to get into a university. UCLA’s tuition rise will not, according to the govenor, not affect the middle and lower income families. Their aid will rise. It will affect the wealthier families. But the tuition/room/board is a bargain compared to many schools. And, the average income of UCLA students (for example) families is more than that of USC (a private university).</p>
<p>Yes, it can have something to do with the program itself. The staff may not be compelling, the grunt work disagreeable and the future at the university, as the student views it, not interesting. The student may, in fact, decide that private training (easily done in Los Angeles) will further their career. In addition, UCLA is NOT conducive to audition for professional jobs. From what I understand, it is actively discouraged. And, as anyone in the business will tell you, that is a problem because at 18 you can play 15 which is a very good thing. There may be cliques within the department. Or, like my daughter, a proud Trojan with SAG membership and a number of jobs under her belt, she wasn’t interested anymore unless a job fell in her lap. And it may well do that. (She had to refuse a big job recently because it would prevent her from participating in a college activity.) </p>
<p>If you have any concerns about the program or your daughter’s interest in that program, ask her. Listen to what she has to say. She’ll tell you if there’s a problem.</p>
<p>My D is in the program and she has been “chomping at the bit.” The first year at UCLA is hard because you do take lots of classes that aren’t acting, movement and voice to get the Theatre major requirements done. She has supplemented with student films and is in a UCLA theatre production. Some have left because of sports. Some have left for other majors. But from what I understand and have read in UCLA articles, UCLA expects that 65 to be 22-25 by the 4th year of the program, in line with what most programs graduate. So, it stands to reason most will be lost the first year and between the first year and second years of the program. I personally like the idea that UCLA accepts more of them to give more a chance. Let them self select.</p>
<p>I agree with chrissyblu. I have heard that some schools hold “auditions” after freshman year and some are asked out of the major. I feel that this is most unfortunate. The truth is that the HUGE majority will not make it as an actor. Most won’t ever book a job. BUT many will find other venues for their passion, be it technical, costume, or theater management. Others will morph into film or casting. Give the kids a chance to find their passion, be it the first or second choice/look.</p>
<p>This is a great subject. I find myself thinking that on the one hand, this shows that researching programs beforehand can stave off disappointment (eg not enough hands-on the first year, if that’s really a problem for someone). On the other, there are so many unknowns until you’re actually doing something, that it’s right for the U’s to expect attrition and for students to make changes if they feel strongly. We all look at grad rates in general for schools, and worry about anything below 70-80%, but that’s very different from specialized programs like this. What I like is when they offer alternatives, and escape hatches, and work with kids to help them decide what works best for them. </p>
<p>I’m not offended by someone who gets into a school through a “wider door” like the arts, only to transfer to something else. They need choices and options at this age, and if they can handle the work after all (after being a less than stellar applicant), all the more power to them. I’m actually more surprised that there are so many kids who do know what they want to do full-time by the age of 15, 16, 17. Of course many of them will need to make changes as they mature. The last thing I want for my kids is to feel locked in for life, or guilty that they shouldn’t follow their hearts in a new directions because of loyalty to some artificial standard, or to our wallet. I admire the kids on these forums who are starting over, willing to deal with it financially, in “lost” time (which I don’t think is truly lost), and hurt pride.</p>
<p>Sure, if I were a kid who didn’t get in and I heard of people giving up these invaluable - to me - spots, I’d be really miffed. But that again is life. And in theater there are too many stories to tell about people who take spots and “ruin” it for everyone else. There’s no getting around that. Life isn’t a science, and people should be able to change their minds without feeling everything’s gone down the tubes.</p>
<p>I agree with you, EmmyBet!</p>
<p>Soozie, what’s your take on the “audition for BFA in 2nd year” programs? Does this prevent the dropping out, or help kids sift through options? Are there disadvantages, like the BFA students becoming the “stars” and the others second-class citizens? (By the way, it’s an honor to be agreed with by you! Thanks!)</p>
<p>My D says she would love the eating-whipped-cream feeling of a BFA, but also knows she likes a diverse life, so she’s looking at lots of BA programs. At the risk of portraying her as less-than-100% (man, the stereotypes are killer!) I’ll say that she’s plenty excited about doing theater at Bard or Sarah Lawrence, while also dying to get into BU or CMU (plus has lots of ideas for choices in between). I think she knows she hasn’t been there and doesn’t know yet (she’s a junior, has talent, has been a theater buff all her life but has only a very small peforming resume so far). As it probably shows, I’m thinking the BA w/BFA option route might be great for her. But I’m sure there are things I don’t understand.</p>
<p>Also from what I’ve read here, kids who get into BFA programs where there is also a BA option are often allowed to switch to it (I won’t say “drop down” - I really don’t have that prejudice), but that it doesn’t work the other way, except at these schools where they don’t even let you go into the BFA until later. I would think more schools would consider that option. I know that often the coursework is very different from the start, but not everywhere. </p>
<p>Comments, anyone?</p>
<p>I think that the schools that have you enter as a BA and have a BFA option after one or two years are a really good option for either those who are not ready to commit to a BFA and want options and flexibility or maybe tried for some BFAs and didn’t get into those but will have a BFA option down the pike if they attend a BA school with a BFA track after two years. So, I actually think this is a viable option for many. It is more flexible. The con of it is if you truly would only be happy with a BFA (doesn’t sound like the case with your D, who could go either way), then there is no guarantee you’d get into the BFA track once you attend the school that has an audition for that track after a year or two. In your D’s case, I would certainly consider having a few BA with a BFA option after 1-2 years schools on her list. I think in your D’s case, she could have a college list that has some BFAs, some BA by audition, some BA with a BFA option track after 1-2 years, and some non-audition BA schools. </p>
<p>By the way, going to a BA doesn’t mean one is less committed to theater. I know a lot of highly talented committed young actors who chose a BA path as they preferred that style of an education. For example, my D has talented friends who opted to go to Yale, Brown, or Northwestern, despite being admitted to BFAs. They wanted a BA, but are not any less committed to theater as a passion and career.</p>
<p>USC (southern California, not Carolina) has both a BA and a BFA program. The BA allows more flexibility in that a student can double major. In terms of performance options, students in both programs are able to audition for shows. The BFA is different in that they accept a certain number of kids, mixing and matching the programs for maximum strength and they pretty much stay together for the four years.</p>
<p>Some of these stories are enough to make you want to beg your kid to go into something else! (kidding, of course).</p>
<p>So UCLA is a BA by audition. I just looked at their website since I know nothing about the program. They imply that they have to be accepted into UCLA first (supposedly you need a student number before you can schedule your audition). They also state emphatically that you CANNOT transfer from theater to film/television (whoa - talk about controlled!).</p>
<p>Kids - like the ones we read about here every day - are waiting anxiously to see if they get into schools, crying if they do and crying if they don’t. They’ve committed time and energy to auditions, hopefully done their research, hopefully know whether they want a BA or a BFA - which UCLA doesn’t have, but from comments here their BA is considered to be as intensive as a BFA. They decide, we hope, among multiple acceptances, which program best suits their needs.</p>
<p>They get there and a quarter of them switch out or leave before the 1st year is over.</p>
<p>Much has been said on CC about whether the audition process and highly competitive nature of these programs are inappropriate, useless, even counter-productive. I guess what’s really true is that there are so many variables that can and can’t be controlled and we shouldn’t be surprised at any outcomes. My own personal acquaintance with the college experience is that about half of the kids I know in any field either transfer, take time off, change majors, or stop completely. I don’t see why it shouldn’t be the same with theater kids, no matter how single-minded or passionate they seem (or truly are). </p>
<p>It just is sad because they agonize so terribly during the audition process. I know getting into college at all is terrifying, and I don’t diminish the “regular” admission experience. But having my first experience with auditions thrown in I’d say this is particularly rough. And my kid, as mentioned above, isn’t dead-set only on auditioned schools. As Soozie has said many times, some theater kids put themselves into admissions probabilities far lower than ones who apply to all Ivies (and she suggests that they make more realistic plans!). </p>
<p>Of course we’d all hope that if they do make it, that it’s happily ever after. We hear so many happy stories, and I don’t doubt them for a minute. I have an older D who’s going to her dream school, got in ED, loves it, is off studying abroad and loving that. It includes stress and worries, just like all of life, but she has no second thoughts. I hope my D2 can be as happy, although with theater we probably won’t have the same admissions ease, unless she does decide to go with an early (of some kind) acceptance to a BA, or auditions successfully somehow in the fall. I fully expect to spend months trying to make the many, many choices that she’ll be faced with (I’m not saying that she’ll have many, many acceptances, but that there will be dozens of choices all along the way).</p>
<p>Let’s be kind and caring to any of these kids. They’re really putting themselves on the line. As has also been said on CC many times, they’re awfully young to be making such intense decisions and commitments. I just hope in making changes they receive some respect and help from these institutions. The only opinion I’ll state again is that I wish more schools provided more flexibility before, during and after admission. It’s an awful bind for so many of these kids.</p>
<p>Thank you to the originator of this thread - we all need to hear about, think about and talk about what happens next, so we can help our own as they go through the whole experience. I mean the WHOLE experience, since we all know they don’t ride off into the sunset the day they move into the dorm.</p>
<p>Oh, and Soozie (and anyone else who’s interested), we’re heading to the NYC area on Friday. We have tours scheduled at Wagner (auditioned BA), Adelphi (auditioned BFA) and Sarah Lawrence (non-auditioned BA). We’ll take a look at a few more campuses as we drive by (many are on spring break themselves). Drew (non-auditioned BA), Purchase (auditioned BFA), Hofstra (non-auditioned BA with auditioned BFA option later), and the usual Manhattan schools as we walk around (NYU, Pace, Marymount - all auditioned, BA and BFA options at the latter 2) are all possibilities. I’m hoping she’ll know even better what she likes and wants after this trip (she’s toured BU, CMU, Bard, Hampshire and Lawrence U already). She’s got a pretty good gut and learns a lot whenever she sees a school. </p>
<p>If nothing else, we’ll see a bunch of great shows!</p>
<p>EmmyBet, very glad you are seeing a variety of schools because besides exploring each school, it gives some idea of the sorts of options that exist. I’m gonna be in NYC one night too, the 29th, to see my daughter in a performance. </p>
<p>I hear what you are saying about such young people making commitments to a field so early. That is why the BA is such a great option (or the BA schools that have a BFA track after a year or two) as they don’t force that commitment. I have one child who was ready to commit at age 16 when she got into college for a BFA in MT (but it was something she had done her entire life and her commitment was unwavering) and another child who was not ready to commit at age 17, but had a direction she wanted to go into and did eventually. I don’t think one way is better than the other. It is more common to not know for sure as a teenager and to make many changes. That is the beauty of a BA degree. Also, for actors (more so than for MT), the option of a BA plus MFA is a really viable one. Also, it is still junior year and I have had some advisees who were not sure if they wanted a BA or a BFA in junior year, and so they applied to some of each and had a better idea of what they wanted a year later. Also, for those who are not 100% sure even in senior year, a BA school would be a more appropriate fit. </p>
<p>Enjoy the Big Apple!</p>
<p>UCLA do not require that you be accepted before you can audition, anyone can apply and audition. However… regardless of how well a prospective applicant does at the audition and interview, he/she must still meet UCLA minimal academic standards in order to be accepted. TFT decides on who they would like to admit and then send the list to the UCLA admissions office who will then examine the applicants GPA, high school history and SAT scores before deciding to admit. So you need both a great audition and interview as well as reasonable academics to get in. Details are here:
<a href=“http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/admissions/undergrad_adm/paths_to_adm/freshman/scholarship_reqs.html[/url]”>http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/admissions/undergrad_adm/paths_to_adm/freshman/scholarship_reqs.html</a>
I agree that the current system of audition and heartbreak is pretty bad, but it’s the best one we’ve got and I personally cannot see any other way of getting the right applicants to the right schools.
I forget the exact reasons that you can’t transfer from a theater major to a film major, but if I remember correctly then they are some thing along the lines of timing, class size, number of credits etc. and the limitations seem to be procedural rather than “control”.
Once admitted to UCLA as a theater major you can pretty much switch to anything else at UCLA you may be interested in majoring in within reason. e.g. even in TFT you can switch from MT to theater, class size permitting.</p>
<p>I know you don’t think I questioned any kid, like yours, who does know what s/he wants - I applaud any of them (and I daresay all of us are fans of your D, even if we never see her perform!). I also think many of these kids have it written all over them even when they themselves are unsure. My D1 went to school “undecided,” but I would have bet $1000 she would go into science, and she has. I’m just glad she was able to choose in her own time, and allowed to do that exploration.</p>
<p>D2 has chosen - she’s been “all arts all the time” from the very start. But we went through wanting to be a painter in 9th grade, to an opera singer in 10th grade, and now she’s settled on theater (which I also would have bet $1000 on!). She loves performing, but I think she knows that with her interest in music, and writing, and art, and history, she could easily go into any of the production sides, dramaturgy, etc. She’s doing all the theater she can now, and talking to as many people as possible, and I do think as you say that she will know infinitely more in a year what she likes, if not what she wants to do. </p>
<p>That’s something I find exciting about helping kids grow up, after all! I’m just glad that there ARE options, and places like CC to do all of this learning ahead of time.</p>
<p>To you UCLAers: I hope you don’t think I was trying to bash the program. I was just using it as a typical example for learning what quirks and hurdles a school might have. I appreciate your clarifying what they mean - many of us are reading this forum and this thread as we begin the search and application process and we need help! It sounds wonderful, in so many ways. For a time my D thought about CA and would have been very interested. For now, she’s settled on the east or midwest, which I appreciate, if only for convenience!</p>
<p>I just wanted to add that students may make the decisions but they are buffeted by opinions on all sides. Parents have their own agendas, based on things like price, nearness to home, reputation, job prospects, and so on (present company not excepted). Then there are the high school teachers and counselors. One of these apologized to me for hoping my D would choose a particular school just because the high school had not yet placed anyone in that theater program. And, as if the feedback from adults were not enough, the internet gives students daily access to old friends, friends of friends, people they met at auditions, enrolled students, etc.</p>
<p>I mention this because I imagine other people’s opinions play a big role in the decision to accept or decline a school with a great reputation—such as UCLA. I can easy imagine any of the above parties saying,“Well, but, you can’t turn down UCLA!”</p>