For some reason, I looked up old notes and emails I had written about my son. Oh, my goodness. For a couple of years, I was emailing his psychiatrist almost daily, we were so worried about him. It really helped me to see all of this, I had forgotten so much. It’s abundantly clear that we did EVERYTHING we could to help this kid. If it weren’t for us, he wouldn’t have graduated form high school, that’s for sure. And some of the specific complaints he has now, I addressed in emails to the doctor. I also asked the doctor for advice about how to deal with his behavior, so we weren’t flying blind.
But I guess current wisdom is that we are just supposed to say “sorry” for the horrible way we raised him. Ugh. I really need to remember to treat him the same way I treat our ill son when he is delusional. But other son’s delusions aren’t directed at us, so they are easier to deal with.
Do you think this son (#2, right?) is resentful of the attention you had to pay to son #1 during #1’s crisis? IIRC, son #1 started college and then his medical issues started, and that would have been when son #2 was in hs? You had to direct a LOT of attention to #1 and #2 may have felt slighted (and it sounds like he was having issues of his own just to get through hs) and that was coming out in his MH/with his therapist while in hs.
I’m just playing armchair psychologist. I think you can move forward guilt free, knowing you did what you had to do for your child with the biggest need. I’m sure you tried your best to parent the other kids at the time, and it’s sad that one thought you ignored him or that he feels he didn’t get the super-parents he thought he deserved.
I was one of six, and a middle child at that. As an adult, I can look back and see that my mother did the best she could. I can also see that my father was a really lousy parent, especially to me as he didn’t like me. My sister, who was his favorite, now sees that he was a lousy husband and father, but that didn’t happen until he’d been dead for 5+ years. At least your son is willing to go to counseling and try to fix things now. I’m sure he won’t suddenly find you were perfect, and hope you can both find a way to see the other’s side of things.
I just took an end of life doula course for 8 weeks. It reaffirmed the wisdom and usefulness of active listening, trite as that may sound. In my experience a focus on defending oneself is not helpful when one of our kids is aggrieved. It is more healing for them to be listened to and have their feelings accepted, rather than challenged- even when those feelings might seem distorted. It’s hard. But I believe that is the path for healing for parents too, as counterintuitive as it may seem at the time.
This seems to be a hot topic lately. It was recently discussed in a WSJ article (gift link below). The article says “Some 10% of the U.S. population is estranged from a parent or a child at any given time, according to research by Karl Pillemer”
I have been following this topic in the podcast world since I am estranged from my sister. Thank you to MaineLonghorn for sharing your experiences. We are pulling for you. My healing process involved a deep dive into my generational trauma, not to find blame, but to better understand my core values. I call my daughter a canary in the coal mine, because her pain allowed me to see the generational trauma in me. I am in year 16 of this journey. So many books, so much therapy, so many podcasts. My heart goes out to you.
I agree with this to a point. What comes after the parent listens, apologizes, takes all the necessary steps to mend the relationship, but the adult child doesn’t give an inch? I’m not talking about situations that include physical, verbal or emotional abuse. But so many instances revolve around adult children who seem to not view their parents as actual human beings, with history, needs, fears, etc.
I think this is why it’s so important for parents to share their stories when their kids are old enough to hear them, and not pretend that they are always in control, perfect, and infallible.
@Leigh22 I didn’t mention apologizing. That may or may not be appropriate. I focused on listening. Listening without defending ourselves. And by venting, however hurtful that venting might be, the adult child is taking a step toward healing both for themself and the parent.
It is up to us to help our kids understand we are also complicated humans with needs. Of course that is also a step in their ability to mature in a healthy way. I will say that getting gray hair helps them understand our needs!
I can only convey my own experience. Others might be different. But I have seen parents lose their kids by prioritizing self-defense. It doesn’t really matter if kids’ memories are distorted. It is still their memories and rational explanations and resolutions might come after they have had a chance to fully express what they feel was real.
I think it’s important to remember that everyone’s memories are distorted, the simple act of recall creates opportunity for memories to be blended, shortened and changed. If either the original memory or the subsequent memory is highly emotional, it’s more likely to be impacted based on where and how it’s stored. Research is clear on this, no one is remembering the past perfectly. Subsequent events can also have a dramatic impact on how we process past memories. As someone who went through an extremely traumatic event and quite a bit of subsequent therapy. I understand how some of the memories of the traumatic event have shaped other memories. Sometimes it doesn’t matter if you’re right. But that can be difficult to accept.
I wonder if any studies have been done on the brains of people who have disconnected from their families with no underlying issues, no apparent reason or distress.
I wonder how many people who have done this actually have had undetected damage to their brains, whether by injury, undetected stroke, substance use (not just hard core drugs but things as seemingly minor as alcohol, marijuana, side effects from legal medications). Just one episode of psychosis (which can happen from something like an extreme anxiety attack, stress) can cause damage to one’s brain.
I would be very curious as to what brain MRI’s and CT scans would show. Of course, you would have to get volunteers who aren’t convinced the fault is of their families.
Not directly responding to the quote above, but the words made me think about something that @Darcy123 said about memories
It’s what I was getting at with the Lucille Clifton poem I posted in this thread.
We don’t get to control the memories of others. I struggle when someone not directly involved in an estranged relationship declares there was no physical, emotional or verbal abuse. How do you know since you literally couldn’t have experienced the whole of the other two people’s relationship and interactions? I also don’t think there is a bright line that distinguishes when someone crosses over into physical, emotional or verbal abuse to another person, especially since none of these issues are being litigated in criminal court or family court for the most part. This is how each individual perceives the actions.
A parent can say they spanked their child for discipline, and the child can experience those spankings as physical abuse. Another child spanked might not experience spankings as physical abuse, and that experience doesn’t invalidate the first child’s experience.
A parent can yell at their child, and the child can experience that yelling as verbal abuse. Again, another child yelled at might not experience that as abuse. Do we think there is a line that has to be crossed? Is it yelling that the child is stupid? Or other insults (fat, gay, slutty, etc)? Is it the number of times a parent yells or what the insults were? Or is it how the child feels when yelled at that makes it abuse?
There are so many ways emotional abuse can be conveyed, but I think the point I am trying to make continues here as well.
I think trying to litigate the accuracy of memory can be counter productive. It turns the conversation from how one individual has experienced the relationship and their feelings regarding the relationship to who has the authority to declare ‘reality’ for everyone in the relationship.
@compmom words really spoke to me. Probably because I have been working on this skill and while challenging at times, it has been very helpful with all my relationships, not just with my children.
None of this is easy. One of the things I struggle with as a parent is to hold the idea that I did the best I could as a parent, and that I failed as a parent in multiple ways. Those aren’t contradictory. Being able to hold the idea that my best wasn’t good enough at different points has helped me be able to listen better when my children have come to me as adults with their issues and concerns.
Ultimately, I don’t get to determine the quality of my parenting. I have three final arbiters of that, all now adults (and scores probably vary).
This is absolutely true. An individual processes things through their own lens, they respond to things differently than the next person, they remember things in their own way. I would not go so far as to say that they are necessarily “right” just because they view something as they do … but the way they view it is right for them. My older brother viewed the exact same experiences growing up far differently than I viewed them. I disagree with his assessments, but I also recognize that his assessments were his truth.
But sometimes there’s documentation that shows a memory is incorrect. My son is convinced that we paid “tens of thousands of dollars” more for his sister’s college education than his. He recalls that we paid for her room and board but not his. What he does not remember is that because he went to school out of the country, he got no financial aid, so his tuition was about the same cost as D’s total COA. We said it was his choice to go overseas to school, so that’s why we didn’t cover room and board.
But to be sure, I’ve spent hours going back and figuring how how much we paid for both of them. Bottom line: We paid $397.68 more for D than for S. I’m so glad I kept good records.
I wouldn’t be so miffed if he had inquired politely about this, but he didn’t. He was pretty rude.
I won’t even bring this up if he doesn’t during therapy.
I think sometimes we can all get overly focused on “what is the objective reality?” in relationships when (imo) it comes down to “what can I live with?” either in or out of the relationship.
I have had conversations with family where we all agree on what was said or done on an occasion…and there are multiple views of what it meant/how it was received. When there is absolutely no difference in the actual memory of the event.
When discussing events that there isn’t a shared agreement of what was said or done? Even more differences in how the event was perceived by those there.
It’s why I try to respond to the feeling the person is sharing with me “I felt unheard”, “I felt unfairly treated”, “I felt loved”, “I felt sad”, I felt angry”, “I felt rejected”, “I was hurt”, etc rather than the action/conversation described.
I can respond in this new opportunity to the feelings the person is sharing and try to change the dynamic moving forward - or I can tell them how they don’t remember the event accurately, that wasn’t what I meant, they overreacted.
I remember my kid’s principal who said to me, “it’s not important what actually happened, what matters is what the child’s perception on what happened.”
When D1 was in middle school, she said her history teacher was dismissive of her opinions in class. When I raised it with her teacher, the teacher said he didn’t think he was and it was not his intend. I asked him to do what he could to change her perception.
That article resonates with me. I can see why someone would want to stop going back and forth through the five stages of grief and just focus on the anger stage. What an unfair and terrible thing to have sacrificed and given unconditional love for an adult child’s entire life, and then get crapped on for absolutely nothing the parent has done to deserve.
This is a quote that hits home. “What I hear from others is that we are playing a game that only our estranged child knows the rules to, but we feel the consequences if we break them”.
I’m not 100% sure what thread this fits in but I don’t feel the famous people dying thread is the place. The death of parents by their own child resonated with me. My husband has a close friend who has an adult child who is a drug addict but also likely mentally ill. What came first is debatable to them. They struggle with going no contact and not letting the child in their house. They have in the past paid rent for him but the child came back home and they have through law enforcement had to force the child out. Knowing you might be pushing your child into homelessness. The dad fears that they could reach a point where their child is a danger to the parents. We have know this family for 30 plus years and they are good parents. Sometimes loving your kids isn’t enough.
The only people who think “gee, it’s bad parenting” are the people lucky enough not to have a family member with a serious mental illness. If you have gone through the “overmedicated/undermedicated” cycle with a loved one; if you’ve been the target of the anger as the denial kicks in; if you’ve seen the ticking time bomb as everyone holds their breath and hopes that finally the “team” of psychiatrist, therapist and the NP can keep the wheels from falling off the bus…
Well, I’m out of metaphors. Hugs to everyone dealing with this. And to those who haven’t, look around and see if there’s someone in your life who’d appreciate a “Hi, thinking of you” whether a card or an email with no questions asked. Because at some point the wheels usually fall off the bus.
