No, I’m not implying that, but I would wonder about myself if something similar happened to me. I would have to wonder if I was projecting the same sort of narrow-mindedness and that is why they liked me, or communicating somehow that I would be okay with people around me feeling comfortable to say those types of things in front of me. That you described your college as a small LAC magnified the issue even more, as one would expect students at a small, private campus community to be more accepting of one another, but that may be an unrealistic expectation on my part.
I don’t doubt that those awful things are sometimes said during the rush process, but I’m quite confident they are also said outside of the Greek system. Greeks are no better or no worse than non-Greeks in that regard.
@Pizzagirl I think the way we phrased it was, “Use that word again and you’re getting your ass kicked.” The guy from LSU was maybe 5’6" and 130 lbs, my fraternity brother was a 6’2" buff Jamaican who grew up in the Bronx, now a VP for a well-known large corporation. We were kind of hoping he had heard and would come back down and slap him around, but, really, he is a much better person than that. To his credit, the LSU guy was appropriately contrite.
For those wondering, no, there was no public masturbation at my fraternity, women were too rare to treat too poorly, but the alcohol use was huge, a standing order for 7 kegs of Michelob each week. I was the last year of the 18 drinking age and things clamped down quickly.
“Don’t put too much stock in the organized philanthropic activities. My D volunteers weekly with an organization. Toward the end of each semester the greeks, realizing they haven’t fulfilled their hours, show up en masse, girls in makeup, white sneakers and yoga pants, guys in Nikes and hoodies, and pretend to do work for half a day.”
I agree that often the Greek philanthropy is more for show and to feel good about themselves. Back in the day one of my friends was very active in student government and he worked in the office that disbursed funds to support student activities, and he said often Greeks would put on a big public show about how, thanks to their big fund-raising event, they were able to raise say $3000 dollars for the worthy cause in question. But he knew from the inside that they were granted and spent about $8000 in student event support money (for security, permit fees, equipment etc.) in order to raise the $3000. But hey, it gave them some Good Works to point to and brag about whenever anyone expressed disapproval of Greek organizations.
The could have done a lot more for the charity and wasted no event support funds if they had simply donated just one weekend’s-worth of beer money to the charity instead of buying the beer and drinking it.
“Toward the end of each semester the greeks, realizing they haven’t fulfilled their hours, show up en masse, girls in makeup, white sneakers and yoga pants, guys in Nikes and hoodies, and pretend to do work for half a day.”
What are you objecting to - makeup, white sneakers, or yoga pants? What should they wear - No makeup, and designer business suits and heels to do philanthropic work?
My brother was the philanthropy chair for his chapter when he was a senior. Even he admits philanthropy was “window dressing”. He couldn’t set up volunteer events during home football and basketball games. But guess what, he has volunteered his time to organizations and causes through much of his adult years.
@greenbutton makes a very good point about the professional fraternities/sororities. As she notes, there are several that are music based - Kappa Kappa Psi, Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia, etc. No houses, but meetings and fellowship with students of similar interests and commitments, friendships, charity projects, etc.
I did not consider joining a traditional sorority and living in a house - despite being pushed all too strongly by my mother and great-aunts. It just wasn’t for me. I did, however, join Sigma Alpha Iota which is a women’s professional music sorority. I wouldn’t have explored this except for close friends who were members and encouraged me to join them. The experience really did add something to my undergrad experience. Obviously, groups like this change over time depending on who is a member, but during my time, there was a large group of young women proficient on a variety of instruments and voice. We gave charity concerts, hosted social events, had fun at our meetings, initiated a well-known faculty member to join us as an “honorary” and attended joint meetings with a local alum group allowing us to be more active in the broader community in addition to the campus.
Perhaps times have changed, but I had positive experiences even as a young adult due to that membership. As a young music pro, I was traveling on a bus in NYC and noticed my seat mate’s SAI pin. The woman was on her way to a chapter meeting and turned out to be a good contact. There are also active alum chapters in my current vicinity - an option, although I’m not much of a joiner so no current interest.
I’m in the camp that has observed that music majors (especially those who might want to double major!) are often extremely over-commited time-wise with rehearsals, personal practice, study, etc. I would not have had time to belong to a traditional Greek sorority, attend meetings, live in a house and spend time with sorority sisters. The professional sorority gave me the advantages without undue time demands. Maybe this is something your son could look into.
First of all, thank you all for the information. I’m reading and making notes of questions to ask, and very much appreciate everyone sharing their experience. If anyone would like to wade in on the recruitment process, I would be grateful for that, too. I’ve done research on my own, of course, but I suspect that this is an area in which there can be some variation from place to place and personal experiences can help me weight things.
This is the actual group that caught his eye and without your information, momofadult, I wouldn’t have understood that there were different types of fraternity, so thank you. He saw on a college’s website that this existed and then looked at the national organizations website (is that the right way to refer to it?) and saw video of men playing the kind of music that he plays and was very interested. I am deeply worried about the time issue because he plays beautiful music and is quite smart, but is still a work-in-progress on time management.
“As she notes, there are several that are music based - Kappa Kappa Psi, Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia, etc. No houses, but meetings and fellowship with students of similar interests and commitments, friendships, charity projects, etc.”
At Northwestern, Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia does indeed have a house. It’s a great location for the guys as it’s in the middle of the sorority quad I have no idea if they have house on other campuses.
Yep, I didn’t really care all that much about the philanthropy we did and it wasn’t a reason for joining. Oh well! No one rags on the tennis team or the newspaper club or the theater club for not doing philanthropic work.
Zoos, Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia - see my post above (#38) …that is the frat that my S was involved in. Having seen the time committments required of D during her recruitment process, we were concerned about him, but he managed fine. Similar to how you refer to your S…he was not the master of Time Management skills (to say the least). I definitely felt like there was a little less time reqired on his part during recruitment. Definitely not as “Fratty” as a traditional greek. Musicians are a unique breed?
“What are you objecting to - makeup, white sneakers, or yoga pants? What should they wear - No makeup, and designer business suits and heels to do philanthropic work?”
You’re right, I never really did say how it was inappropriate. It’s farm work for a rescue organization, sinking up to your knees in muck and shovelling manure, cleaning and changing the straw in the stalls. There is almost nothing you can do there in white Keds. My D has an outfit bought at Goodwill, boots, old jeans, an old jacket. I forgot to mention the white down jackets on the sorority girls when it is cold.
Zoosermom - The rush process is very school specific. At my alma mater, it is 6 weeks of very informal events. If he likes a house and expresses interest, they may invite him to dinner with the brothers or a weekend trip, not just the open barbecues and parties. Where my kids attend, it is highly structured and the week before school starts. They are assigned to a group with a couple of upperclassmen as guides, tour all the houses, get invited back to some, winnow it down to a few then wait for bids Sunday night before classes. Informal rush continues the rest of the year.
I was actually tapped to join an underground frat at my LAC which officially banned fraternities/sororities or other secret/socially exclusive societies which had selection criteria other than academic merit. It also banned student membership in such banned organizations as a condition of matriculation and continuing enrollment with sanctions going upto and including permanent expulsion.
Wasn’t interested as that group exuded a similar air of frivolousness which I observed with an older cousin who was active in his college fraternity at a Big 10 in the '80s and drank and partied to the point of flirting with academic expulsion and thus earning a reputation for frivolousness within our extended family. That rep was so bad even siblings* who were active sorority members weren’t willing to defend him and understood when older/same generationed relatives made critical/skeptical remarks about Pan-Hellenic Greek life.
*Ironically, they would have been good poster children for the best sororities have to offer considering their academic performance, campus/sorority leadership positions, and subsequent post-college lives. However, both admitted there was a heavy drinking/partying culture in their respective houses/larger Greek scene and that it was a problem. Neither plan to push their children to go Greek as they did as they understand its not for everyone and the drinking/partying culture they witnessed/experienced wasn’t a positive aspect.
Probably because none of those other groups promotes the philanthropy nearly as often as many Pan-hellenic Greek organizations…especially when responding to criticisms arising from scandals involving drinking, vandalism, social exclusion on basis of race/SES/etc which doesn’t seem to involve those other groups you mentioned with as much frequency…
Just a note: If you can’t be frivolous in college…when? The idea of growing up and having a good time is non PC. again? Freshmen usually do the crazy stuff. By the time one is a senior many are far more serious. Life awaits…jobs and relationships.
I had the most meaningful conversations over the years with my sorority sisters. Yes, when I was in college many women wanted their Mrs. degree.
My life was greatly influenced by my sorority sisters. In the best way. Oh, did I mention that one of my sisters introduced me to Mr. Ellebud?
“especially when responding to criticisms arising from scandals involving drinking, vandalism, social exclusion on basis of race/SES/etc”
Well, those are irrelevant to me since my house was never involved in any scandal involving drinking, vandalism, or social exclusion on the basis of race/SES. I bear absolutely no responsibility for other Greeks who might do such things, and I’m tired of being lumped in with them.
Depends on the culture/family. The level of frivolousness my older relatives observed about the partying/boozing cousin and his fraternity was of the type they felt should have been left behind by the end of middle school or at the very latest, at the mid-point of one’s high school career. Even his siblings who were sorority leaders felt some aspects of their own organizational/larger Greek scene were problematic in this regard when they were undergrads.
And the frivolousness I’m talking about includes run-ins with the campus/local authorities because of his/his fraternity’s partying/drinking antics.
Well, obviously there’s a difference between frivolous as in “having lots of silly fun” and frivolous as in “being arrested because you’re vandalizing someone’s property.” Duh, duh, duh.
But let’s be stupid now, and pretend that those are the same thing.
“It’s farm work for a rescue organization, sinking up to your knees in muck and shovelling manure, cleaning and changing the straw in the stalls. There is almost nothing you can do there in white Keds. My D has an outfit bought at Goodwill, boots, old jeans, an old jacket. I forgot to mention the white down jackets on the sorority girls when it is cold.”
Well, honestly, my daughter and I both have white down jackets. They can be tossed in the wash with a sneaker to keep the down in place if they get dirty. Is the problem that these girls are wearing white clothing, or is the problem that they aren’t working in an attempt to keep their white clothing pristine?
Yet you and most who join such organizations do so to enjoy the national and international networking benefits…including having members who can give a leg up for younger/fellow fraternity/sorority members in areas such as hiring for jobs or joining other exclusive social/professional networking organizations. Since those benefits are by their nature derived not solely from the local campus chapter, but the national/international fraternity/sorority organization at large…it sounds like you just want to positives of associating with the national/international organization along with all their affiliate campus chapters without any of the negatives arising from their respective negative actions/behaviors. Sorry…but when one makes an affirmative choice to join an organization…one is making an implicit choice to accept both the positives AND negatives of that organization.
If the latter’s too much…one should reconsider/decline joining it.
Both. They are told what to wear, what the work will be, then show up unprepared and work at about 10% of a normal pace.
If you were told you were going to be digging cross ties out of the mud/manure mixture, cleaning them, hauling gravel, the re-setting the ties, would you forget to bring gloves and show up in your white sneakers and puffer jacket?
I have no idea if they have house on other campuses.