Guidance for Undergraduate Studies and Future Career Path

Applying to College
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Hello College Confidential Community,

I am reaching out for guidance as I embark on my undergraduate journey at Paris Sorbonne University. I am considering majors in Economics and Management or Law. My overarching goal is to pursue a graduate degree in the United States, with a particular aspiration to attend an Ivy League institution. While I understand that this goal may seem ambitious, I am seeking advice on how to achieve it.

I recently posted another inquiry on this forum seeking assistance. In that post, I mentioned my previous disinterest in law while studying in 2019. However, I have discovered that Sorbonne University now offers a program that combines law with other subjects that I find compelling. My ultimate career goal is to enter airline management, and to achieve this, I am eager to pursue either an MBA or an LLM.

I am eager to receive advice on how to build a strong academic and extracurricular profile during my undergraduate studies, tailored to enhance my prospects for admission to top graduate programs in the United States, particularly Ivy League universities. How can I ensure that my academic achievements and extracurricular involvements align with the rigorous standards of these esteemed institutions?

As I plan my academic trajectory, I am also curious about the optimal timing and prerequisites for applying to graduate programs in the United States after completing my undergraduate studies in France. How can I strategically position myself to be a competitive candidate for admission to Ivy League graduate programs?

Furthermore, I am contemplating the value of pursuing either an MBA or an LLM degree as part of my graduate studies. I am committed to cultivating a robust academic foundation that will serve me well in my future endeavors.

Having spent the past five years traveling the world, I have gained valuable experiences that have shaped my perspective and aspirations. However, I have experienced moments of self-doubt, particularly when comparing myself to peers who pursued their academic paths at a younger age. Seeing friends graduate with multiple degrees while I begin my undergraduate studies at 23 has sometimes left me feeling discouraged.

I wonder, is starting my undergraduate journey at 23 a setback? How can I rebuild my confidence and reassure myself that my unique path is valuable and worthwhile? I am eager to hear from others who may have faced similar challenges and overcome them successfully.

In summary, I am seeking comprehensive advice on how to build a strong academic and extracurricular profile to bolster my chances of admission to Ivy League graduate programs in the United States. Your insights, recommendations, and guidance will be immensely valuable as I work towards realizing my aspirations.

Thank you for your support and assistance.

Best regards.

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Several points to make here.

First, if you want a career in airline management, I am not sure getting a legal degree or an MBA is necessarily the next best step. Maybe getting an entry level job in their management program is the best first course.

Second, do you mean a JD vs an LLM? LLM’s usually are for students with law degrees already earned in another jurisdiction. Also, only Harvard, Yale, Penn, Columbia and Cornell of the Ivies even have law schools. People in the states generally refer to the “Top 14 law schools” when segmenting the top law schools. You can google that list. To gain entrance to those schools, you need excellent grades and LSAT scores. You can google each school to see what the median GPA and LSAT scores of attending students.

Most top MBA programs like to see a few years of work history before they consider your application. So this ties in with getting an entry level job first before pursuing an MBA.

Note MBA and JD’s at these schools are expensive unless you get significant aid. We are talking over $100k per year plus the lost wages over 3 (JD) or 2 years (MBA).

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For OP, the most likely US law degree would be an LLM as law is an undergraduate major at the OP’s current university in France.

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An MBA degree would be more useful for a career in airline management.

If by “top graduate programs”, you are referring to MBA or JD/LLM programs, no extracurricular achievements are required.

LLM law degree programs for foreign trained lawyers look primarily at one’s grades earned while pursuing a degree in law. JD degree programs look at undergraduate grades and LSAT/GRE/or other accepted standardized tesrt scores.

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Thank you for your answers,

In fact I do have three choices for undergraduate studies.

  • psychology
  • economics and management
    -law.

And yes I do wanna enter a corporate position in an airline. Beside of MBA or LLM, I really wanna integrate a top tier graduate school in the US. Do you have any recommendations about which program i can take in graduate school in the future ? Is an MBA still possible with my career goals? How can I start building strong academics and extracurricular for graduate schools?

Take care

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And also in France law is an undergraduate degree.

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What kind of things are they looking for for the MBA then?

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And I am really sorry to ask this. But is it really bad to start an undergraduate degree at 23?

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As I mentioned above, the top end MBA programs want students with work experience and rarely accept students straight out of undergrad. As far as other graduate programs are concerned, it will vary by the type. Many will require some type of research experience, even in non-STEM fields. There are no definitive boxes to check other than to earn stellar grades, do well on the relevant exam (GRE, GMAT, LSAT) and have a strong relationship with some mentor/professor who will write a strong recommendation. Having relevant summer internships will trump any school “EC”.

Lots of students start later in the US, especially ones who started in the military after high school or had to or chose to enter the workforce out of HS.

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Considering the average age in an MBA is 28, you’ve got plenty of time.
Note that Economics at the Sorbonne is math-heavy, essentially applied math with a sprinkling of social science, lots of modeling, R, and calculations. You can use Khan academy to review precalculus, calculus, statistics&probability because you’ll need to know that well before you start there.
Law will require you to read a lot and memorize word for word.
For an LLM you’ll need a 1st law degree with very high grades, ranking you in the top 10% of your class; previewing the content over the summer can help.
You can complement this with a semester abroad at the most prestigious UK or US University your program has an exchange with, as it’ll create a record.
You will also need legal work experience - and before that, volunteering with people who need help with papers (the ederly, refugees…)

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Thank you so much again!

If the MBA is only accepting people with nice work background; are there any other graduate programs that I can attend and that you would recommend?

And on the French grading system;
what kind of GPA should I have in order to have a chance to apply for prestigious graduate programs in the US?

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16+… but really you need to be among the top few in your year, someone who stands out and whom professors know.

Most US graduate programs expect you to work 2-5 years before you apply, with a leading role - this may be difficult to achieve in France. The apprenticeship scheme would work.

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If you are interested in getting an MBA, the best approach is most likely to graduate with a bachelor’s degree, work for a couple of years, and then apply to MBA programs.

I got my master’s degree in a subfield of applied mathematics. Most of the students in the same program had some work experience. I thought that my work experience helped me to gain more from my master’s degree. There were a very small number of students in the program whose expenses were being paid or subsidized by their employer.

Graduate admissions in the US will have someone on staff who understands the typical grading system in France, and who knows something about French universities. You will want to be somewhere near the top of your class. Perhaps top 10% or top 20% might be appropriate depending upon where in the US you are considering. Top half might be appropriate to get you in somewhere (but not Harvard nor Princeton nor Stanford). How to translate between “top 10%” and a specific GPA is something that I would not know, but someone in admissions at Harvard’s business school will know (as well as someone in admissions at other “prestigious” MBA programs).

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Do you have a source for your assertions ?

I am very familiar with various types of US law school LLM programs and have never–over the past 40 years or so–come across such requirements. While first degree in law is a usual requirement, grades/class rank in the top 25% or sometimes in the top 50% are sufficient. However, requirements will vary by law school and by admissions cycle.

P.S. Are you confusing the LLM law degree with the SJD law degree ?

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Typically, the top 15 MBA programs want candidates with 2 to 5 years of post-undergraduate degree work experience who are able to clearly state a reason for wanting to earn an MBA degree.

The most competitive MBA programs like community service and prefer demonstrated success while in the work force.

Standardized test scores on the GRE or GMAT and, sometimes, the LSAT are accepted and expected to be high.

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Well, any Ivy League university LLM(what OP is asking about) is highly selective.
Columbia or Harvard’s LLM class profiles make it clear you can’t get accepted is you’re just vaguely above average with mediocre professional experience. Admitted students were very successful in their domestic legal system, secured a prestigious or significant position, then to further their career chose to attend a one-year professional program.
More specifically to OP, Penn has a pathway for French students: Penn’s LLM French students generally come from Sciences Po… which is highly selective.

In short, a 16+ average is just the beginning for OP. Then they’d have to find a job, then secure admission to Sciences Po’s Master…

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I was not able to find any stated requirements beyond prior study in law.

OP: Try not to focus on Ivy League LLM programs in law. Focus on what your reason is for wanting to earn an LLM in law at a US law school. Is it scholarly research or is it to qualify to take a bar exam in one of the 5 or 6 US states that permit foreign trained lawyers with a US LLM degree to sit for their state bar exam ?

There are hundreds of US LLM programs for foreign trained lawyers offered by dozens of US law schools. Some are general programs to prepare the law student to sit for one of the US state bars that permit foreign trained lawyers with US LLM degrees to do so, while others are in highly specialized areas of the law such as taxation, patent law, human rights law, etc.

For most-maybe all–law schools which offer LLM degrees, the LLM degrees are cash-cow programs designed to generate revenue for the specific law school. Often the revenue is then shared with the university.

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But if you look at the profiles or the expected professional experience it’s clear OP is targeting programs that aren’t just cash cows that admit anyone who passed a Bachelor’s in law and who’ll pay.
More specifically, as a rising 1st year French student in law OR economics (OP has nor chosen yet) OP needs to understand they’ll need to hit the ground running in september (ie., need to start reviewing or previewing the material now on their own, or register for a July English prep course and/or an August pre-law prep course), will be expected to have very high grades through consistent studying for every class and even that may not be sufficient to find an internship. Without top grades and internship even the licence pro or the specialties leading to jobs will be closed and in turn the LLM they’re aiming for. For Sciences Po and its dual degree, they’ll need to have very high grades as a 1st and 2nd year student along with a high level in English (IELTS or Toefl) to be selected for study abroad in law.
So, i stand by my recommendation that they need to have very high grades (16+) over the next 3-4 years.

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We’ll just have to disagree as there is nothing magical about Ivy League law school LLM programs and I am not aware of any such specific requirements.

The LLM in Taxation is the most highly developed and most sought after LLM degree in US law schools. None of the top ranked LLM in Taxation programs are offered by Ivy League law schools. (Caution with LLM programs rankings as some are complete bs.)

The top ranked LLM in Taxation programs are offered by these law schools: NYU, Georgetown, Northwestern, U Florida. Michigan has a tiny LLM in International Taxation for foreign educated lawyers. BU, Villanova, U Denver, U Miami, U San Diego, Loyola Marymount are some other notable programs, but not on the same level as the top four that I listed.

Second highest demand for an LLM degree from US law schools is for foreign educated lawyers who wish to qualify to sit for one of 5 or 6 US states bar exam which permits such degree holders to do so.

The third highest demand area would see much less demand. Some LLM programs may have just one to five students.

Other than for the field of tax law, an LLM degree is fairly worthless for one targeting a career as a law school professor. The better path would be an SJD or a PhD in a subject such as economics.

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I do not think LLM from an Ivy League is “magical” but OP does (this is their 3rd thread). Fwiw the LLM is 5 years down the road so @Alpiiiish needs to do very well much before any LLM enters the picture.
And just making it through the 1st 3 years of Law or Economics studies at the Sorbonne is going to be tough considering 65% don’t make it; out of those who do, due to a new policy, only from 5 to 40% get to continue at the M1 level (depending on specialty). Setting yourself up for success by preparing for that 1st year is important. Sure, @Alpiiiish can get 10s and pass of course then keep their fingers crossed but imho that’d be poor advice.
It’s the same as telling a rising senior who wants to be Premed they need As.

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