Have you had a midlife marriage crisis like this? If so, how did you solve it?

<p>Oh dear, Calmom. My H would be so distressed to have me tagged as Ms. Mechanical Devices. I offer suggestion as a route to autonomy.</p>

<p>When we learn we can meet our own needs (in any area) and strong sense of dependency leaves we can negotiate getting those needs met by others with less urgency, which I think is always helpful in a negotiation.</p>

<p>Autonomy is always preferably to codependency in my book.</p>

<p>It’s hard to sort out a marriage that has a normal level of dependency from codependency, and sex and money are often the weapons, cages, poker chips of the game.</p>

<p>I find everything about divorce hard, even when it is the right thing to do. </p>

<p>Pizzagirl’s family situation is excellent. In some other families even adult children feel dislocation of divorce. That’s not an argument against it if it is truly the most desirable course of action, but it is if one is fence sitting.</p>

<p>I enjoy my H’s company, but he is financially irresponsible. At times I have longed to divorce him and escape that. But I know he would deteriorate and be even worse with his money so he would have even less to give his kids, and my kids would be pained to see him in the condition I believe he might deteriorate to.</p>

<p>It’s a very difficult situation, but one that has joys, and not just compromises and burdens.</p>

<p>I was always impressed watching the end of A Beautiful Mind that Alicia eventually took the schizophrenic John Nash back. Sometimes we’re just connected to people.</p>

<p>And sometimes we’re not and can free ourselves and recreate our lives.</p>

<p>Tough decision.</p>

<p>“there are some medical studies that say men who have more sex have less prostrate cancer…so really, you need him to do this for his own health AS WELL AS your marriage. Maybe he will listen to that? No man wants the Big C!”"</p>

<p>I have to look up that research. H has had some prostate cancer scares, and is really afraid of getting that kind of cancer.</p>

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<p>I’m starting to feel you are really dealing with a medical issue in terms of physical intimacy. He may already know this, actually.</p>

<p>From: <a href=“http://www.renewman.com/Estrogen-–-You-need-a-little-but-not-a-lot[/url]”>Estrogen Cream in Allston MA - Renew Youth;

<p>"The male body needs a small amount of estrogen as conversely the female body needs a small amount of testosterone. Estrogen in men helps prevent osteoporosis, supports sex drive and brain function.</p>

<p>Excess estrogen in men is not good. It offsets the effects of testosterone, causes the body to retain water, can cause the prostate to swell and increases the risk of prostate cancer. </p>

<p>In the past there was a belief that testosterone caused prostate cancer. We now know that healthy testosterone supports prostate health. It is the conversion of testosterone to estrogen that increase the possibilities of prostate problems.</p>

<p>Excess estrogen in men occurs as men age and hormones decline. Excess estrogen is unsafe and adds to the symptoms of andropause. Testosterone treatment is safe if done correctly. It should be noted that testosterone replacement – there are supporting studies – decreases the chances of developing prostate cancer. It is the conversion of testosterone to estrogen that causes an enlarged prostate (lifestyle and diet are also contributing factors) and/or increases the risk of prostate cancer. Increasing testosterone levels and controlling estrogen lowers the risk of prostate problems."</p>

<p>I know that article is intended to sell something (I didn’t bother exploring enough to figure out exactly what), and I really don’t think that the influence of estrogen sans testosterone causes the prostate to swell. Trust me on this one.</p>

<p>I have thought about this a lot. No less frustrating in one sense, but emotionally easier, less crazymaking, far less upsetting. It’s one thing not to be having sex because the opportunity is not there, it’s another to know someone is deliberately keeping it from you.</p>

<p>This is so true- not just about sex- but if you are living with someone who is emotionally unavailable- that can be much more lonely than if you were living by yourself.</p>

<p>Don’t really get the mechanical devices but toys can be fun.
I like costumes. ;)</p>

<p>By the way, despite having been on estrogen for 10 years now (both orally and, since my surgery, internally), with the source of testosterone gone for 7 years, I do still have a libido. Although it’s certainly a lot lower than it was once upon a time. Especially because in some ways I feel I’m still recovering from my surgery, which was, if I recall correctly, a year ago this coming Monday (and that’s hard for me to believe, a subject I might talk about in another thread). </p>

<p>This has been an amazing thread, although I’ve hesitated to say anything, since I’m hardly in a position to offer anyone marital or relationship advice. Other than to suggest to future generations that it’s not a great idea to marry someone 9 months after you met them, especially when, at the age of 31, you’ve never had a relationship before that lasted more than a couple of months. And not so many that lasted less.</p>

<p>But I did want to say that in my own experience (which, after all, is all I can talk about, despite the temptation we all sometimes have to universalize our experiences), it’s infinitely worse, and more painful, to go completely without physical intimacy inside a marriage, than it is to be effectively celibate when single.</p>

<p>During the last 10 years of my 13-year marriage (it was technically 18 years, but we were separated for the final five), there was no physical intimacy at all. Never mind sexual intimacy; there was never so much as a held hand or a chaste kiss on the cheek. Maybe there were one or two smiles over those years, but that’s about it. And it was incredibly painful to me; the feeling of rejection was a constant. It wasn’t my imagination, either – the 10 year period began with my spouse specifically saying as much; something along the lines of “I no longer find you attractive in that way.” I’m not assigning blame; nobody can help how they feel. And maybe there was a perception, without knowing exactly why, that there was something very different about me. But I couldn’t help how the rejection made me feel, either. I have never exactly suffered from high self-esteem in the first place, and the cumulative effect of all those years of rejection and coldness was devastating to me. It isn’t as if we fought all the time; there were long periods when we co-existed, and co-parented, and did things like going to restaurants and movies together, and took family vacations, in reasonable peace. Sometimes, I managed to suppress the conscious awareness that something was very wrong. But not for long. </p>

<p>By the time we separated, I was essentially an emotional basket case. Still, I might never have left the marriage if I hadn’t been forced to. I couldn’t bear the idea of being separated from my son. He was only 10 when my ex finally informed me (by email, of all things!) that our marriage was over, and when I did leave, after several months of seriously contemplating suicide, and blaming myself for everything (a feeling my ex strongly encouraged, I’m sorry to say), I think I cried every night of the first year of the separation when I wasn’t with J. I missed him so very much. </p>

<p>I used to wonder if my ex had needs in that area at all, because I saw no evidence that they were being taken care of in any other way, with mechanical devices or otherwise! Later on, I learned that there had been an extramarital affair going on, throughout the marriage, with someone my ex had known for many years before I came along, and had actually considered marrying but didn’t because the person didn’t want any children. (I think the way my ex viewed it, the marital vows didn’t apply to pre-existing relationships – a grandfather clause, as it were!) In retrospect, I probably should have figured it out, but the thought honestly never crossed my mind. Maybe it’s better I didn’t know until after we separated, because the depths of my low self-esteem (and my desire not to be separated from J.) might have led me to stay even knowing what was going on. My divorce lawyer actually tried to persuade me to take a paternity test. I was absolutely horrified, and of course refused. I never doubted for a moment that J. is mine, and knew that nothing could change that. (Besides, among many other things, we have the identical feet!)</p>

<p>In any event, to get to the point finally, I have now been celibate again for more than four years, since my one post-marriage relationship ended. Yes, I’m lonely a lot of the time. Yes, I’m envious of those of you with longterm marriages. I miss the companionship, as much as the physical intimacy. But there’s no comparison whatsoever to the emotional damage I incurred from being in a marriage with no physical intimacy, and being continually aware of the rejection, for a decade. I’d rather be alone forever (something that seems increasingly likely the older I get, especially given my horror of the process of trying to meet someone new, and especially given the difficult issues of disclosure of my history that I would face) than be in that kind of relationship again for any length of time.</p>

<p>I want to thank everyone for sharing so intimately. I wonder if any thread has sparked as may PMs and backchannel sharing. For me, it’s been both sad, but also really helpful, to know I’m not the only person living this way in a marriage. I’ve felt so alone in this and to see posters whom I’ve come to respect as terrific, dynamic people over the years disclose a similar situation makes me feel less alone.</p>

<p>MythMom, your post resonates with me, and is so timely. I struggle with same.</p>

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<p>Exactly my experience during our separation. And even if you are the type who loves to be alone (I do) it still gets lonely. I thought I would be fine because my husband is away from home for long stretches of time due to his work and I was at the point where I was happier when he was gone or when I went away with friends and family without him than when he was home. But somehow it’s different when you are truly alone in every sense of the word. It’s a different sort of ‘alone’ from when your spouse is gone on a business trip.</p>

<p>Plus, when I started looking around at single men in my age group to date, well, there weren’t all that many that I found attractive (emotionally - I’m long pass the point of looking for the perfect physical specimen). I’m not saying they aren’t out there - a lot of it depends on where you live. Redrose is apparently in a city where there are lots of single men in her age group. Not true in my community. In fact, there are a lot more very attractive, single women in my age group than men. Men tend to remarry very quickly (they don’t like being single) whereas, women are more likely to never remarry (obviously, some by choice).</p>

<p>I think there are exceptions to the rule, like RedRose, but most people find divorce and being single just as difficult as being married. Obviously, some relationships are so destructive they need to end but the reality is all relationships are hard. The thing I have learned from weekly therapy is a lot of it has to do with your own self-talk and problem solving skills. I don’t believe that it only takes one person to change the dynamics of the relationship but I do believe that you can learn to change your reaction to your partner and what you tell yourself and that makes a big difference in your perspective on the relationship. Even though we have been back together for 2 1/2 years, we still have many issues we are working on. What has helped me the most is a weekly group session led by a therapist with other women where we look at things that are bothering us and our reactions to those issues and how to address the problems in an assertive way (cognitive behavior therapy - we use David Burn’s books).</p>

<p>There is nothing wrong with being terribly hurt by your partner’s behavior. The important thing is to express that hurt (using “I” statements) and let it go (something I’m not good at). One thing I am learning to do in therapy is to be very explicit about what I want as in “This night is very important to me. Please meet me at the bridge at 6:00pm. I would like us to have a romantic evening and therefore, would prefer we don’t talk about work.” My husband doesn’t do subtle but he will give me exactly what I want if I outline it for him in great detail. In some ways it’s almost like dealing with a child - you can’t say (to every child) go clean your room and get exactly what you are looking for in a clean room. With some kids, you have to spell it out for them - a clean room means the trash is empty, the floor is sweep, there are no clothes on the floor, etc.</p>

<p>I guess at some point during our separation I decided if I was going to have to ‘slog’ through life it might as well be with my husband than alone because the potential rewards were greater. Other women come to the opposite conclusion. They see the potential for rewards greater out of the marriage. The problem is you really don’t know for sure until you’ve stepped out of the marriage. Maybe a controlled separation is in order.</p>

<p>BTW- I left my husband before I had a job. We had the financial resources where I was able to do that and I got very lucky. My former employer hired me back (had been a stay-at-home mom for 10 years) at a very high salary but that was several months after I bought a house and moved out. What was I thinking? I look back now and still can’t believe I had the guts to do that!</p>

<p>MomLive: That is brave.</p>

<p>BalletMom: That’s for the camaraderie.</p>

<p>Separate bedrooms has been a good compromise for us, and when we get too unhappy with each other my H sleeps at his studio which is very close to home.</p>

<p>Ideally I’d love two gorgeous houses on the same property. But my H is slob, so I’d probably never be able to walk into his.</p>

<p>NSM: I apologize if this has already been brought up. But it seems to me that you need to sit him down and actually use the “D” word. Tell him the way you are feeling and that you are seriously considering divorce. If this does not catch his attention and make him do what he needs to fix the situation, then I don’t think anything is ever going to change. And that’s a fact you have to accept. The ball will then be in your court. If the word divorce doesn’t scare him and he doesn’t change, he is basically saying that he does not care about you enough to save the marriage. But at least then you’ll know. It will be up to you to take control of your own life and stop expecting him to make you happy (maritally).</p>

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<p>I just wish I could talk my husband into separate beds. We just spent several weeks in Asia where the hotels all had twin beds. I slept like a rock. I sleep so much better if I have a bed to myself. Have to admit that was a plus when we were separated :)</p>

<p>I am not sure I would use the “D” word. I guess everyone needs to make that decision for themselves. Its appropriateness is certainly based on context.</p>

<p>I have some random thoughts on intimacy and mature marriages…</p>

<p>Do we women expect that a man should always be the initiator? If not, do we believe that it always has to be mutually initiated? </p>

<p>How many of us have truly tried to seduce our partner, and been squarely rebuffed? </p>

<p>Can’t we women just directly go for what we want, for ourselves? And if in the process, our partner gets something out of it, then fine. If not, then who cares? Sort of like the stereotypical male four or five decades ago? </p>

<p>I read recently that a big fantasy of most men is to experience being the one NOT in control. Does testosterone wane as a male ages? Should women just worry about their own needs (and would this then indirectly lead to deeper levels of intimacy)?</p>

<p>I have no clue about any of this. Just thinking out loud…</p>

<p>Spideygirl… I don’t know if it has been explicitly said, but I get the sense that NSM’s frustration stems because she has been initiating, and initiating, and initiating… and has been rebuffed repeatedly.</p>

<p>Spideygirl - my experience seems to indicate that it is man specific. In my case, when I came off my depression meds, I suddenly had ‘interest’ that I hadn’t had in years. Initially my H was ecstatic, but I think the pendulum swung too far in the other direction for him. :eek:</p>

<p>He did not respond well if I was too aggressive in initiation (performance pressure?); I found I had to back off and let him be be the one to take the lead in general. YMMV :)</p>

<p>I probably would not talk about divorce until I was absolutely sure I had exhausted all other ways to rekindle our romance.</p>

<p>From what you have said, NSM, your husband is not a spiteful, hurtful person. I think I would start a conversation with that statement (with perhaps a list of ways that have proved to you that he IS a good person). I think I would try to explain that when my overtures are rebuffed, I am terribly hurt and left to come up with my own theories as to why I have been rejected- none of which are pleasant. I would probably list all the possible things I ever thought about and then just ask which is it or have I overlooked something. I think I would have to say that I just need to understand. I think he owes you that much.</p>

<p>Big hug, NSM. I am rooting for this to all work out.</p>

<h1>315 is correct.</h1>

<p>NSM, it sounds like you have a lot of respect and admiration for your husband for the kind of person he is, and at the same time you greatly resent some of his actions.</p>

<p>It also sounds from your posts that your husband is very much willing to change his behavior once you tell him what bothers you, which, I think, is an indication that he cares a great deal about you. The only exception is the issue of sex, which bothers you a great deal, and he is ignoring it completely. This makes me think that there is a physical problem behind it that he afraid to address. </p>

<p>I think he may be unaware of your resentment of his flourishing career, which came at the expense of yours. He may see the situation completely differently - see himself as the one who is willing to be the sole provider, letting you pursue any and all of your new found interests and hobbies, and funding your “new life”. He may feel resentful that you did not want to join him in his project, which is obviously of great importance to him, and you used to value in the past… In short, there may be two sides to this, and each side has its merits…</p>

<p>I wish you all the best. You are a person of remarkable strength.</p>

<p>Sometimes when it has been a long time since a couple has been intimate, there is a lot of pressure on that first time when they re-initiate. Its often helpful to make an up-front agreement beforehand that as they begin to cuddle and find things that feel good, etc, that private places are <em>off limits</em> and the dirty deed (for lack of a better acceptable expression) is also off limits. This removes pressure and expectations as couples begin to find what <em>else</em> feels good. Working on re-establishing sexual intimacy is more successful in the long run when the pressure/expectation is removed at the outset.</p>

<p>I’ll stop here as the strategies to work on tis are beyond the scope of a cc post, and probably not really appropraite :)</p>