<p>Thanks for your thoughtful response. It’s very hard to decide whether to give up your family’s “home” because a marriage has gone cold.</p>
<p>I was struck with severe, chronic asthma when I was 17. I am so grateful that there were people who could look beyond health and fitness.</p>
<p>I’m sure there were people who pitied both my husbands, very fit, very handsome men, and wondered what they were doing with me, but they both believed there are things that compensate for not being able to run, dance (though I have climbed mountains, I probably shouldn’t have.)</p>
<p>I don’t believe in staying together for an archaic vow.</p>
<p>I don’t believe in staying together if one is sure one doesn’t want to.</p>
<p>The ambivalence is where many of us get stuck.</p>
<p>I think we are responsible for our own happiness, whether we married or single.</p>
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<p>That pretty much sums up everything I have learned in martial therapy in the last 3 years. Our counselor’s goal is to get all his patients to the point where they can say to their partner “I can be happy with or without you.” His philosophy is that if you choose to leave it should not be because your spouse is making you unhappy or that you are fleeing in hopes of finding someone new. It should be because your value system is no longer in line with your spouse’s. It should be because you have made a calm, rational decision, understanding the potential risks and rewards and the pros and cons of that decision. Of course, he’s not suggesting anyone stay in an abusive relationship - he would be the very first to say ‘get out.’ But what he’s saying (to paraphrase Eleanor Roosevelt) is, "No one can make you unhappy without your permission.’ Because, really, wherever you go, there you are. :)</p>
<p>One theme I see here is that some women who are in bad marriages, decide to stay because they can’t support themselves financially. I cannot sincerely empathize with this sentiment. My mom always said to me be able to support yourself, even if it means working very part time. Good for your pocket and good for your soul. That is how I raised my daughter. Depend on yourself. You never know what may happen down the road. This thread has reinforced this for me. I know some women choose to be stay at home moms, and I commend that, but you can work from home or do something you love on the side. I don’t ever want to be dependent on a man for my livelihood if I can help it.</p>
<p>Call me naive, but I had no idea so many women were stuck in unhappy marriages. From what I have observed among friends, neighbors and family - when men want out, they leave, When women want out - they tend to worry more about the kids - regardless of ages - and they stay and think on it some more. </p>
<p>Montana Mom - from what I have observed - being stuck is the worst part. The feelings of fear and the indecision - that makes you feel weak and powerless. Please make a plan. Find a job - open a bank account in your own name if you don’t already have one - make an appt and speak to a divorce attorney to find out your rights - what you would be entitled to in a divorce settlement, etc. Taking some actions gives you confidence - it will make you feel more in control of the situation.</p>
<p>No one here is going to be able to tell you that the kids will be just fine. They will be upset - they will be angry - you have to be prepared for that. Family counseling is always a good idea - but you also have to find the inner strength to know that you are doing the right thing - and that your kids will get through the transition. Don’t linger in an empty marriage too long - you won’t get those years back.</p>
<p>milkandsugar - I just have to comment on your post. I have been married for 21 years and have worked at least part-time and mostly full-time for that entire period of time. For many years, I was actually the primary breadwinner. But, given the economy over the past few years, I was laid off in 2006 and it took me 2 full years to find another full-time job. It was during this period of time that my own marriage went through some struggles and the frustration and anger I felt at having fewer options because I was unemployed was immense. I have enormous sympathy and empathy for anyone who is suffering the double whammy of being stuck in an unhappy marriage and being unable to find a job - it is a horrible situation to find yourself in.</p>
<p>My reponse was more in tune to those who stopped working to raise children and never returned to work. You obviously have work skills, but was affected by the economy.
That is a different situation.</p>
<p>Many do stay in marriages because they never developed any working relationships or career network outside of the marriage. Thus leaving them totally dependent on their husbands to provide.</p>
<p>Milkandsugar, you said what I have been thinking. I have emphasized to my Ds that they need to be able to support themselves. Even without divorce, the death of a spouse can leave a woman with a very difficult financial burden if they have not kept at least some contact with the world of employment. I have told my daughters that even if part time work earnings are eaten up entirely by day care when they have kids, it is worthwhile to have at least SOME recent work experience at all times in their lives. </p>
<p>I am extremely fortunate that I was always the primary breadwinner in our family, and when I divorced ex-H after 23 years due to infidelity and abusive behavior, I was able to support myself and my kids pretty well. Ex-H has not contributed one penny to D1s college expenses (D2 is not there yet), in spite of what the FAFSA & financial aid people THINK he should do. So I am very grateful now for my career even if I don’t love my work every single day.</p>
<p>Rockvillemom, sorry to hear about your situation. But I think you would be in a stronger position than someone who had been out of the workforce for much longer.</p>
<p>There are all sorts of reasons people end up in the situations they are in. I am fully self-supporting, and getting older enough that I guess I could retire (it would be a struggle) but I sympathize with women who aren’t self-supporting. There are reasons and circumstances that people end up where they do.</p>
<p>Often when we’re doing well, we think we engineered it. I can honestly say that I can’t account for my wonderful job or wonderful children, just like I can’t account for my asthma or my husband’s problems. </p>
<p>The grace with which face these things is the measure of a person I think. I don’t always pass this test, but I do try.</p>
<p>And some situations are so complicated that there doesn’t seem to be a solution. I like the Zen adage, “muddy water is best cleared by not stirring.”</p>
<p>Oh, we’re dong just fine now - my situation has been resolved for the better. But my heart goes out to every woman who is posting on this thread or is just reading along and is feeling trapped in an unhappy marriage - and feels really stuck because of lack of employment. Whether it is someone like myself who was out of work for a relatively short time or someone who has been a full time wife and mother for years - the powerlessness that accompanies the lack of income is paralyzing. Speaking from experience, I agree with your advice to your daughters intparent - about always working at least part-time - but you also have to realize sometimes it just does not work out for various reasons and then you end up in that precarious position you never thought you’d find yourself in.</p>
<p>Reading these posts is extremely depressing. As far as daughters are concerned, I made sure that my daughter was raised exactly as my son -with the assumption that they will need to support themselves without anybody’s help.</p>
<p>I, too, was raised with the expectation that I should be able to support myself. Life is not always so straightforward, however. After working full time while my children were young (for a time as the sole breadwinner) I felt very fortunate to be able to make the decision to be home full time. My career was very demanding, with a considerable amount of travel, and I felt that I was missing out on time with my children that I would not get back. Because re-entering my former career would be very difficult at this time, I returned to school two years ago to prepare for a second career. Due to the current economy, there have been virtually no jobs available in my chosen field. I am hoping that the situation will improve with time. </p>
<p>If anything, I think this thread shows the complexity of balancing personal happiness (career or marital) with parental responsibility. If this was so clear-cut, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.</p>
<p>montana mom – exactly my thoughts. Some luck into the perfect situation; some luck out of one and end up in debilitating situations. And things can change from one to the other really quickly.</p>
<p>One reason my ex left me was because he didn’t think I was making enough money. Now I out earn my husband.</p>
<p>I could never have predicted that.</p>
<p>I’m the same person.</p>
<p>I like the story that Isak Dinesan tells that the world was made round so we could never see the way in front of us for a long distance.</p>
<p>Momlive-- I’m really getting a lot out of your posts. </p>
<p>Even at the time when I was considering what I needed and wanted to have and what kind of relationship I wanted with my H as we got older (I’m 45, at the time I was 40), I was very aware that I liked and loved him and had no expectations that he would want to change things, and I was all right with that, too. I would have been fine walking away and I would have considered the years we’d spent together to be years well spent, though I would have been sad for the loss of such a long time companion. I wanted more for me, but had no way of knowing if that would be the case with him. I was prepared for him to say no, and to be okay with that.</p>
<p>Fortunately things worked out differently and it is as if we are in a new phase, different, but no less important or intense than the older phases. Of course, when you start out as teenagers, you’d better be married to more than one version of the same man or else something has gone terribly wrong. ;)</p>
<p>Also, since this seems to be the “issue of the day,” I would add that I am fully self supporting and very financially successful and would experience no diminishment whatsoever in my monetary lifestyle if I were to be on my own. The diminishments would be personal, for me.</p>
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<p>I’m currious how this type of vow would be worded:
- “I will love you and honor you unless and until you get sick, fat, unemployed, bad in the sack, and/or your kids start to drive me nuts.”
- " … until one of us opts out, do us part."
- “I take thee as my wedded spouse in good times, in health, and for richer.”</p>
<p>Isn’t this basically what living together is – a relationship without a forever commitment, subject to termination whenever one of the parties decides to move on? Is it still a marriage if you take forever out of the vows? Why would someone go through the trouble of a wedding ceremony for this type of “commitment”? Insurance coverage? They really want to throw a party?</p>
<p>Maybe I am misunderstanding, but this seems unfair. No one is saying, “I will love you and honor you unless and until you get sick, fat, unemployed, bad in the sack, and/or your kids start to drive me nuts” or “I take thee as my wedded spouse in good times, in health, and for richer.”</p>
<p>“Until death do us part” does not mean that a spouse has to put up with a spouse who cheats or checks out emotionally or who refuses counseling if either of the above.</p>
<p>That’s a really good start whatever4:)!! A few tweaks…if they lose any more hair, get a beer belly or cease to be absolutely top in their field, the marriage auto terminates.</p>
<p>Marriage is darn easy to get out of, so I see living together as just a nicer state for the formally, painfully divorced-they will never have to relive the ugly financial parting.</p>
<p>Money is the theme of the day here and is definitely the biggest fear of my IRL women friends considering a divorce. Really agree with advice to daughters above. Add in that if they stay home with kids they need to make sure it’s in a community property state.</p>
<p>I suppose I’ll have to live with not having earned the respect of women like milkandsugar, because I’m one of those women who hasn’t held down a full time job since my children were born (the oldest of whom is now 23). To my credit though, early on, I began to admonish D to make sure she would never have to depend on a man to live, and am relieved to report that, as a single woman, she makes almost as much as her father makes after having worked his entire adult life. She’s also making very forward thinking and wise decisions concerning her finances. “Always, I said, make sure you can pay your own freight!”, because out of all the bitter regrets I have (and believe me, there are many!), none is more bitter than knowing I gave up my financial autonomy. I am totally dependent upon my H, but if it were not so, I’ve many times thought I might just—leave. It’s not that he is a bad person, an abusive person, or anything of the sort. Most people would say he’s a pretty stand-up guy, but we no longer have anything in common other than our children, and the knowledge of this is about as painful as it gets for me nowadays. We don’t believe the same things, we don’t value the same things, we have no common interests, and I don’t feel like I can share my heart and soul with him any longer. And when you get right down to it, I feel as if I’m to blame, because he hasn’t changed in all the years I’ve known him. I’m the one who’s changed, and I don’t know what to do with any of this.</p>
<p>Do you want to have common interests with your husband?</p>
<p>Calmom, the only common interest we’ve ever held (other than our children) was the one which drew us together in the first place—that of membership in what turned out to be a religious cult. I have since come to unequivocally reject the vast majority of what that “Christian Ministry” stands for (Nope–not Jehovah’s Witnesses). H is still very much invested in this group. He has no hobbies or serious interests outside of this group, and is without even one iota of intellectual curiosity. I look back in stunned amazement that I ever allowed myself to be involved with this group of “Christians”, and marvel that I was ever willing to completely deny much of what was the very essence of my being in order to be accepted by them. I suppose my vulnerability stems from the fact that I was hoping they could rescue me from what had become a lifetime of often debilitating clinical depression (it seems that NSM and I have chronic depression in common). They could not. Eventually, involvement with them literally led to a psycho-somatic illness resembling MS that lasted a number of years (I see now that, because my children needed me, I subconsciously chose to crash physically in liew of total and complete psychological breakdown). I assure you, it is a very long, sad and complicated story…</p>