High school teachers: authority figures and mentors--or BFF and "Mom"?

StickerShock · May 19, 2007, 3:48pm

Gosh Opie, you make so many ridiculous claims & assumptions that it is impossible to have any dialog with you. I don’t know to whom you are referring, but I have wonderful relationships with educators & administrators. They have me chaperone all the time. They’ve had me make career presentations to their classes. I dont bite & I play well with others. Good administrators & teachers appreciate parents who seek high standards yet don’t sweat the small stuff. Some teachers have approached me & asked me to bring up their concerns at BOE meetings from a parent’s perspective.

You also scare me. No transgression by a teacher is EVER admitted by you to be a problem. Thank God you don’t run a school system. In the past you’ve called me a gossip because I was upset about a 1st grade teacher dumping a little boy’s desk out to humiliate him in front of his class on his birthday. And because my son’s 3rd grade teacher told the class that she “hates math, too.” And now a teacher announcing to a class of ten year olds that you can sneak into a bar with a fake ID is peachy keen in your eyes.

The principal, with whom I get along very well, thanked me for passing on the teacher’s comment. Her initial reaction was, “Good Lord! He said what?” So I guess she agreed with me that it wasn’t a wise move on his part.

hereshoping · May 19, 2007, 3:51pm

Opie. You may not have noticed, but you want parents to be responsible, and then when they are, you complain.

My example is not “out there” at all. There are cases like this everyday written about in media outlets you probably are not fond of (Fox news, for example). Most newspapers are liberal (i.e. in bed with teachers’ unions). Lucky for you.

berurah · May 19, 2007, 3:55pm

opie, I’m afraid I do not understand your statement. Are you saying that a generally warm, empathetic person cannot ever experience dissatisfaction with something and want to see it rectified? That that dissatisfaction always connotes “bitterness”? I am not bitter. Why would I be? My voice and the voices of all of those who agreed with me were heard–and responded to, finally.

I am not a “different” person, but neither am I a single-dimensional “Pollyanna.”

Though neither you nor kluge will ever be convinced of this (and that’s perfectly O.K. with me), my motivation for tackling this issue was based on the same empathy you see on these boards. It may not be manifested in the way that you approve of, but again, that’s o.k. My empathy was very strongly with all of those deserving students who were blatantly overlooked for the sake of a teacher’s wanting an “award” for herself. I thought that was selfish and wrong of her, and I still do. She got her award, but at the expense of the memories of a lot of deserving kids. And I (and many others) fought to rectify that wrong, and we were successful by virtue of sheer numbers and the overwhelming consensus of the community.

~berurah

StickerShock · May 19, 2007, 4:01pm

And Opie, you also completely miss the point of Beruruah’s yearbook campign. You are lecturing a woman with six accomplished kids that she shouldn’t care if her kids’ pictures appear in the yearbook because it will be gathering dust on a shelf soon. She couldn’t care less about the number of pix involving her kids! (You apparently do, because you brought up your kids being slighted. Did you count the pictures?) Don’t you get it? When a yearbook eliminates coverage of all meritorious activities & achievements, and instead offers coverage of pregnant teens & their baby showers, the community standards have been lowered. Ever hear the phrase, “You Get What You Reward?” Berurah & the hundreds of concerned community members in her hometown get it.

berurah · May 19, 2007, 4:07pm

^^StickerShock~

THANK YOU!!! SOMEONE GETS IT!!!

This yearbook “fight” was over something MUCH larger than recognition of my own kids. I had no senior that year, and none of my kids stood to benefit personally from inclusion of academic awards in last year’s yearbook. My kids were not slighted in any greater way than all of the other rule-abiding, adult-respecting, school sponsored activity-participating kids. This was about a principle, not about MY kids.

THIS PRINCIPLE:

~berurah

latetoschool · May 19, 2007, 4:15pm

Yep, have to say I agree as well…SS hit the nail on the head quite nicely…

kluge · May 19, 2007, 4:20pm

Stickershock, re post #78- My point wasn’t that Berurah’s post was “filled with venom” - anyone could read it to see what she said - my post was that it was in fact driven by venom at the teacher in question - which Berurah denies, but which is evident from her post (not to mention her crowing about her SUCCESS in ridding the school of Ms. Chittum.) In your next post I’m afraid you’ve bitten on a less than rigorously accurate depiction of the yearbook.

MOD NOTE: I DELETED AN EXCERPT FROM A BLOG. OUR TERMS OF SERVICE PROHIBITS LINKS TO BLOGS. AS WELL, FOR THE SECOND TIME IN THIS THREAD, PLEASE DO NOT POST PERSONALLY IDENTIFYING INFORMATION REGARDING OTHER CC MEMBERS. THANK YOU.

I’d note that my kids’ yearbook follow this pattern. There is no list of academic (or other) awards won by individual students. There are sections with “lifestyle” stories, pages devoted to clubs (academically oriented and otherwise) sports teams, etc. Group pictures are at the end.

berurah · May 19, 2007, 4:31pm

^^A typical response by someone on the other side of this issue.

1.) If it were just “a couple of mothers,” the teacher would still be here. It was the majority of our community, and the democratic process worked as it should have. And yes, I very much consider the teacher’s leaving a success. She may have been good at working with kids and letting them have their way (or HER way, and brainwashing them to think it was theirs lol), but she was wretched at working with the community which paid her salary, a very unfortunate mistake on her part.

2.) I have already explained that my children had nothing to gain from the improvements I suggested. Any suggestion otherwise is simply a lie.

wharfrat2 · May 19, 2007, 4:51pm

This reeks of censorship to me. As for the “majority of the community” one of the greatest quotes I’ve ever read was from an attorney who stated that “Majority rule is not 6 wolves and a lamb sitting down to vote on what to have for dinner.”

berurah · May 19, 2007, 4:57pm

wharfrat~

The press coverage of this set of events was understandably skewed, since it was journalists reporting on journalists. That really was a huge problem all the way through the process.

If anyone tells you that any of the parents who were wanting more comprehensive and representative coverage were also asking that all objectionable material be removed, they are misrepresenting. I spoke at the school board meeting…I was THERE…and at NO time did anyone ask that all of the objectionable material be removed in the future. What was asked was that it not be given GREATER priority than positive, school-sponsored activities. Since this IS a school setting we’re talking about, that was really quite fair.

Don’t get me wrong. If it were up to ME, there would be NO coverage of teen pregnancy, tattoos, piercings, h.s. marriages, cheating as a study skill, or public displays of affection. But I, unlike many others, do NOT feel like the yearbook belongs solely to one group of kids, so I’m fine with compromise.

What people like you are disregarding, though, is that it is EQUALLY censoring to remove ALL mention of academics. It’s just discriminating against a different group of people. It’s really not that hard to understand. It’s called SHARING.

~berurah

mathmom · May 19, 2007, 5:05pm

I completely agreed with Berurah that a spread on pregnant teens is inappropriate. The yearbooks I have seen up to now, haven’t had academic honors in them because all those decisions are made long before the yearbook went to press. (I actually haven’t seen current high school’s yearbook and our sal and val are decided so early they may well be in the book.) The yearbooks I’ve seen (my own and my husband’s from high school and my kids’ from elem school and middle school) have had a mix of candids and group photos. In all of them efforts have been made to include as many kids and groups as possible.

If you want to include everyone, do you include photos of kids doing in-school suspension? I don’t think so!

berurah · May 19, 2007, 5:15pm

Hi mathmom~

Our yearbook goes to press in the summer after graduation and is distributed the NEXT fall, so there is plenty of opportunity to get photos of the kids who earn academic awards and honors–they just chose not to last year.

The big problem with our group photos being 2" x 3" in the index section is that you simply cannot see the faces of the kids in the large groups, like the band or the football team. Therefore, if you weren’t lucky enough to be in one of the four or so candid shots, you simply didn’t get any recognition for all of your hard work (our bands, choirs, sports teams, etc. work WAY too hard to be overlooked in this way!!!).

This was my point exactly at the board meeting. I can guaran-damn-tee you that NO ONE there wanted a two-page color spread on the egregious antiSemitism that is rampant at our school (along with a photo of the swastika carved into a desk in my daughters’ drama room), photos of the weekend drunk-fests and orgies, or photos of the computer teacher who was just spotted at the bowling alley with a female student nuzzling at his chest. BUT, these are all part of “high school life” in our town. What should we choose to feature, and whose decision should it be?

Thanks for the voice of reason. It is much appreciated.

~berurah

kluge · May 19, 2007, 5:18pm

None of those things are in my kids’ yearbooks, either. (I’d never noticed before, but I went and looked.) It kind of makes sense - after all, the yearbooks function will be to let the students look back on their high school days, and the things they did, and pictures of those they did them with. No one will care that Johnnie Smith was a NMF - that’s not what the book is for.

**MOD NOTE (AGAIN): PLEASE REFRAIN FROM POSTING EXCERPTS FROM BLOGS OR LINKS TO BLOGS. IT IS AGAINST OUR TERMS OF SERVICE. I WILL PARAPHRASE THE POINT BROUGHT UP IN YOUR BLOG EXCERPT:

FROM WHAT KLUGE READ ABOUT THIS CASE, THE OFFENDING CONTENT IN THE YEARBOOKS WAS A TWO-PAGE SPREAD WITH PHOTOS REGARDING TEEN PREGNANCY, INCLUDING A DIARY ENTRY OF A JUNIOR WHO HAD A CHILD WHILE IN SCHOOL, ALONG WITH TWO-PAGE SPREAD DISCUSSING, ALONG WITH PHOTOS, TATOOS AND PIERCINGS. THE REST OF THE BOOK WAS TYPICAL YEARBOOK PHOTOS AND STORIES ABOUT STUDENT ACTIVITIES, ETC.**

There is an interesting story here, though. It’s the SUCCESS of a group of parents in driving out an obviously talented, dedicated teacher who inspired at least some students far more than other, more “acceptable” teachers did.

soozievt · May 19, 2007, 6:17pm

I’m not understanding the purpose of this thread. I thought this whole yearbook case had a thread a while back. What I am observing is the OP’s further dissatisfaction with other things about this teacher, but it all is wrapped up together. It really is not a thread about relationships teachers have with students, how friendly, how professional, etc. It seems to be about this teacher again, and about the yearbook conflict in her school. Perhaps the old thread should be bumped up and continue the discussion? It is all one and the same to me. At least it is turning into that discussion about this teacher again. That is not what I thought the thread was about when I read the first post and responded to it. Anyway, discuss the yearbook incident again if you want but I don’t think we need two threads on this case. That’s what this discussion is turning into again.

mathmom · May 19, 2007, 6:55pm

As to the original quote in the newspaper. It made me feel squirmy, but I agree it’s a fine line between mentoring and being too friendly. I went to a school where the art teacher married one of the students a few years later (definitely too chummy, but they lived happily ever after), where my best friend is still good friends with her favorite English teacher, and that teacher named her first child after my friend. (Sounds too chummy, but wasn’t.)

I do think that teachers like parents need to keep in mind that they are adults and high school students aren’t, not really. (Even if they are over 18.)

Opie_ofMaybery2 · May 19, 2007, 7:24pm

“Gosh Opie, you make so many ridiculous claims & assumptions that it is impossible to have any dialog with you”

right back at ya sister. :)

“You also scare me.” Sorry I don’t mean to.

"No transgression by a teacher is EVER admitted by you to be a problem. ":

It’s going to depend on the transgression. Most of what you bring up are molehills you try to make matherhorns out of. For the average person they would be forgotten a few seconds after hearing them. For you it’s a life story.

"In the past you’ve called me a gossip " Yes, maam I have, the stories of minor to silly transgressions you bring up as some sort of trump card for your pov, just don’t fly.

We go from dumb teachers at a campout pulling a stupid prank (yes, that’s what it was) to an old guy who came back from retirement mentioning how he had a fake ID to play piano in a bar when he was 16, roughly 50 years ago? Which one should I spend more time with as a prinicpal?

If your 60 year old sub used a fake ID to enter the military and defend our country (as many did) in WW2 and send his pay home for his family would you have still called the principal? both acts were illegal weren’t they?

Instead you left it to the principal to ask the simple question why? Wouldn’t it have been proper to ask the man himslef?

"And now a teacher announcing to a class of ten year olds that you can sneak into a bar with a fake ID is peachy keen in your eyes. "

So now you’ve changed the story a bit??? he went from working playing piano in a bar at 16, to sneaking in to drink? As the chruch lady used to say “how convient.” So which was it? Did he do it to work or did he do it to party? You’ve told it both ways now. The second to make it more daming to me…how convient.

“Her initial reaction was, “Good Lord! He said what?” So I guess she agreed with me that it wasn’t a wise move on his part.”

And then after promising you she’d take care of it. She hung up her phone and went back to her work. We agree with alot of people to get them off the phone…that is part of your frustration. You have all these issues that you talk to them about and you fret that they don’t do anything. Again guess why?

Opie_ofMaybery2 · May 19, 2007, 7:28pm

"S loves the replacement & was telling us about Mr.B’s great experiences working in Manhattan piano bars. Son was amazed that Mr. B. started so young, age 16, that he needed a fake ID. "

HERE’S YOUR FIRST LINES from one post…

"And now a teacher announcing to a class of ten year olds that you can sneak into a bar with a fake ID is peachy keen in your eyes. "

HERE’S YOUR SECOND LINE ON THE SAME SUBJECT in another post…

Does anyone else notice a slight twist in the plot?

How interesting?

hereshoping · May 19, 2007, 7:32pm

I sincerely hope this thread is not locked or deleted, as so many others have been due to “controversial” subject matter.

I believe this discussion is of vital importance and I would like to see more parents take part to express their experiences and opinions.

I’m one of “them” also, opie, as well as being a parent. I have not wanted to give specifics of my employment on this board for privacy reasons. :)

P.S. I’ll admit that math is not my strong point, but I doubt that sub was supporting his family during WWII. :)

Opie_ofMaybery2 · May 19, 2007, 7:42pm

B,

rather than copy your posts about the yearbook problem… And again I can’t say I disagree with you all that much… I do think you are voicing a reoccuring theme What the parents wanted, “we” wanted.

I remeber back 30 years ago to my yearbook and the same stuff happens and parents didn’t like it and yes some students didn’t like it either. Yours is not an isolated thing, that only happened in your town.

The school district next door is being sued by the student editors of their student paper over control of the final edit. It may go a long ways as a 1st amendment issue. The students have alumni support, teacher support and others. The administration has the rules. They’re about to see how well the rules hold up in court.

Our yearbook advisor sucked potatoes as well, and many of the issues you have were along the same lines.

How do you fix it? easiest is simply have a class photo and call it a day. NO more yearbooks. no special pages, just class picture.

The yearbooks are for the kids, the stories are stories of their experiences. Personally I would rather read local student stories than the generic national filler that has gobbled up page after page. I’d rather read about how a teen dealt with her pregnacy and hs, than in 2005 the largest building was…

Part of my point was It’s over. It shouldn’t occupy your time anymore. That simply isn’t healthy mentally.

SS tried to turn comments like these into something evil. Trust me it’s not, you can’t turn the clock back and get a go over. It’s healthier for you to simply move on and do better.

Opie_ofMaybery2 · May 19, 2007, 7:49pm

"P.S. I’ll admit that math is not my strong point, but I doubt that sub was supporting his family during WWII. "

Well was he cavorting with SATAN then?

I guess we’ll never know, cause no body bothered to ask him.

Sorta like an AP teacher my kid had in HS, always seemed to be loud almost shouting when he spoke with the class…

Was he…

A. a loud rude teacher who shouts at his class?

b. an artilery veteran from vietnam with hearing loss from commanding a 155 millimeter howitzer for two tours?

GEE, how did we find out???

A We called the SB and demanded he be removed. How dare he raise his voice at our darlings.

b. Spoke with him on parent teacher night and mentioned the kids thought he kinds shouted at times.

Communication two ears and one mouth, maybe God had a plan after all.

High school teachers: authority figures and mentors--or BFF and "Mom"?

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