<p>My D isn’t avoidant, but I’m on the anxious side, and what cobrat describes is exactly what my D and I went through for several years. She straight up told me that when I offered what I thought was simply helpful advice or loving mom-gestures, what she heard was that I had no confidence in her. </p>
<p>We were never estranged, but our relationship was very stuck until we came to an agreement that I would let her live her life without my input. The way I chose to carry out my side of the bargain was to simply never initiate contact – and I mean literally never. No cards or care packages or texts or emails. All of our communications for a good 6 months were initiated by her, not by me, and they were few and far between and rather distant in tone. I very, very often had to turn away from the phone or the email. It was hard, but I knew that if I pursued her at all, I would only push her away. She had to come back to me, in her own time and in her own way. </p>
<p>Gradually she did begin reaching out more frequently, and the frost slowly melted. We now have a great relationship, but it’s not like it was and it will never be. It can’t be. To put it bluntly, I’m just not that important to her any more. Don’t get me wrong; she loves me very much, but her life is “out there” now, not here with me. I had to really, really let her go, in my heart. Only when I had done that did she willingly return.</p>
<p>It was like we needed a sabbatical from each other, a season for me to realize that she’s a competent adult, and a season for her to settle into being an adult without Mom hovering in the background.</p>
<p>I don’t pretend that my situation is like yours; there was no spectrum or abuse or alcoholism to deal with. But we have this in common: we have daughters who are now grownups and really don’t need their moms any more. At least, they don’t need us as children need mothers. I don’t know if your D will ever “come back” and she certainly won’t come back as the little girl you cherished. But your best chance of having a relationship with her lies in letting her go and, yes, letting her call the shots.</p>
<p>I think my child often consider my unsolicited “parental advices” as the lack of confidence in him. We (especially me) were accused of being over-protective when he was growing up.</p>
<p>One day when I came home from work, my wife was on the call with DS. (her happiest time of that week.) Learning from somewhere that a smart phone could electrify the user when the hand or body is wet, I thought I had better inform him of this. When I gave him this “simple advice”, I was accused of being too protective, and he would find this out by himself if he needs to. My wife was laughing and said I happened to jump into the conversation at the wrong time. Just a moment ago, she was accused by him that because we had been too worried that he might get into a car accident as an inexperienced driver, he did not have enough experiences in driving. She was accused by him of being over-protective just before she handed the phone to me.</p>
<p>I think he is right in accusing us of this. We did come out as parents who have been overly involved. When DS just headed to college, he asked his mom that what she did everyday - he was genuinely concerned she did not have anything to do after he had left home. For me, I “helped” him likely a a little bit too much with his learning of physics and math before his college. We are guilty as charged!</p>
<p>On the other hand, I think he is still on his bumpy road of seeking independence and becoming a self-confident young adult. Just a couple of months ago, we were called at 3:30 am just because he could not get into sleep before a big (like 8 hours long) test the next day. At that moment, he was still our “baby”. Similar events happened before. As long as I open my mouth to talk about anything I am interested in talking about, it could make him sleepy very soon. I have this kind of “special talent.”</p>
<p>Back to the topic of accumulating driving experience: right now, during his busy schedule, he tried to make time to practice his driving (e.g., during some weekend when he has time off.) The only help we could offer is to make sure he had GPS and a good insurance policy. Frankly, we are still very concerned about his driving skill, even though he is 25 yo and he has had his driver license since his high school years.</p>
<p>I. too, send my thoughts to EK. No one wants to experience this no matter how and why it started and why it continues. It’s easy to give advice and maybe for EK to consider it but the hurt does not go away. That being said, I agree 100% and then some about young adults perceiving our advice, reminders, etc as an insult to their capabilities. I try to choose my words ever so carefully and make the reminder very generic as opposed to, “Now you know …” Response: “Duh, Mom, do you think I’m stupid?” At the same time, when they need advice or information we are supposed to be ready at the helm. I guess that’s part of being a parent and so we try not to say, “Oh, now you want my advice.”</p>
<p>Giving her space, when it is fully formed in your mind, will include not defending your side, not explaining or offering details or speculating.</p>
<p>Giving her space means giving her space, not contacting her “only” every few weeks, not “just” trying to remind her of something or include her or do something for her dog.</p>
<p>If her bday is in May, then May and Christmas make sense to me- a card, a few lines, no demands or expectations. “Wishing you a happy holiday. Love, Mom” Even the request about the therapist is encroaching. She clearly wants to set limits- if each time she breathes in your direction, you have “something” she “needs to” discuss, follow up on or respond to- you are not respecting her space.</p>
<p>Easy to fall into. You think you are right. She doesn’t. Of course it hurts, but you have no control options over her, right now. Only over yourself and your own reactions. And your own quality of life. </p>
<p>Wishing you the best. I know it hurts. We have similar issues in our family.</p>
<p>ps. too soon to speculate on mental illness.</p>
<p>ek4 - my prayers and sympathy for the situation. </p>
<p>I agree with others - keep her stuff, don’t write her out of the will, and keep contact to a minimum.</p>
<p>One thing no one else has addressed is the physical pain you’re in. Being in the orthopedic biz, I know at the very least you are feeling the background ‘buzz’ of pain, and it probably affects your life in a very profound way. </p>
<p>I know when I’m in pain, my emotional threshold is very low. What are you doing to address your physical pain? </p>
<p>This is not something you just get over. Lots of people gave good advice to focus on you, your health, your passions and the family that is in your life. </p>
<p>If you are religious there are some wonderful bible studies done in churches all around from Beth Moore. So healing and hopeful.</p>
<p>Love your “special talent,” mcat2! You might think of recording yourself and selling mp3 sleep aids. I am regularly accused of being overprotective by my sons. They both have a firm belief that this is true of me. I see some parents whom I consider underprotective. For example, the mother of one of S1’s friends was quite careless, I thought. During their MS years, I saw her son riding his bike without a helmet on the Boston Post Road, between the parking lane and the right-most driving lane. Those who are familiar with the BPR know that the lanes are much too narrow and it is very busy. I felt that I needed to call her with this information, even knowing that she would not be receptive. I did, and she was not.</p>
<p>Physical pain has actually motivated me to perhaps push harder than I would have otherwise.
Your mind influences so much what you perceive & when she sent me an email before my surgery, I felt 500% better!
I also mistakenly thought that it meant she might thaw out.
I understand about adult children not wanting advice, but again, I haven’t had enough contact with her over the past decade to even know enough about her life to offer advice if I had been so inclined.
My kids have been groomed when they were younger to feel that any discord is my fault. They have internalized it well.</p>
<p>For example, before I had surgery, I was unable to go up & down stairs. I had a textbook in the basement that I thought might be useful to younger D in her studies so when I was in the hospital & H was moving things in the basement so our chest freezer could be removed, I asked him to put it somewhere.
When she came home a few weeks later, she asked me where it was, and I asked H, but he didnt remember seeing it. I looked all through my bookshelves and as much of the basement as I could manage, but I couldn’t find it and she wanted to know why, so I had to tell her it had been in a basket next to the freezer but her dad had moved those things out of the way when I wasn’t home. She huffily told me “not to blame things on dad”. (Generally she had been very supportive of me) </p>
<p>As a last resort, I looked in the bookshelves in her room & found it. He had put it there & just had forgotten.
But that was typical of their response oftentimes to anything that I would say or do, while they were growing up, certainly after elementary school, so I had been conditioned to just do my job. Cook dinner, drive them to school & their sporting events & such, but not ask them to help out & certainly I very rarely tried to express my opinion, which is perhaps why I found CC to be a great outlet for that!
So this whole episode with my oldest is just another example of how I messed up.
:(</p>
<p>You have two different issues here- D1 and the possible “rep” within the family- plus the physical. Until the last two years, DH was incredibly permissive, so I went through the rep thing. Then the light bulb went on over his head and he realized. (I didn’t even have to say, told you so.)</p>
<p>You have to take a hard look at yourself, really consider whether there is something that comes off wrong or misses a bigger point. (Honestly, you probably aren’t any more guilty than any parent.) I’m not talking about shutting up or becoming a robot. Just that sometimes we can id a few things that push our kids’ buttons. Then it paves the way for the next step. (And, sometimes it also helps id how they push ours.)</p>
<p>I’d bet you’re pretty tender; I was. I know the reflection can be extra hard, as an Aspie. I could say more, if needed.</p>
<p>The more you share, the more it comes across to me (as a stranger on the internet) that you took on this role like the tree in “The Giving Tree”, where you give everything you have to your kids and led them to believe that nothing is expected in return. Not respect, not kindness, not even love. And at the same time, as you didn’t GET much from them in return, you feel more and more desperate to continue doing for them to prove your love, even as they became adults. In your older D’s case, this has gone on well into adulthood, with even LESS return from either of them. So you get even MORE desperate, and the cycle continues.</p>
<p>The book incident is a good example. Here you were, struggling post SURGERY, and all you could think of was to make it right, make it right, find the book, find the book or your D would be upset. And when you did find it, all she could do was snark at you. That’s just wrong on so many levels. SHE should have been helping YOU, not fussing about her book! </p>
<p>I’m very curious about your H-he seems to play a large part in this odd family dynamic. He was an abusive drinker when your kids were young, yet you’ve remained with him so he apparently has improved. But recently you mentioned that he implied to your older D that you were “fine” after surgery when you were anything but. His lack of support was so serious that you contemplated suicide. And it appears that despite all this, BOTH your D’s favor him. There’s a piece to this puzzle you’re either not seeing or ignoring. Another thing to discuss in counseling.</p>
<p>mcat, we also still (rarely) get a call out of the blue from our D, wanting help or advice. When that happens, she is quite willing to listen to what we say. But the request has to come from her. </p>
<p>These days, if I have some unsolicited advice (also rare now), I simply ask her if she wants to hear it. Our deal is that she’s allowed to say No, and if she does, I will respect that.</p>
<p>I may need to find a different counselor.
I do better when they are fairly involved and make suggestions rather than sit back & the current one seems like he is a better listener.
I’ve had two therapists who died while I was seeing them so its made me a little hesitant!</p>
<p>Sseamom you make very good observations.
My mom & dad had many issues of their own and dealing with an undiagnosed Aspie was more than they could handle.
I was always “the problem child” growing up, so it isn’t surprising that continuing that role felt familiar.
I’m sure I play into it more than I realize, but I can’t really see where unhealthy behavior starts and those around me are too close.</p>
<p>Youngest daughter has actually been the most supportive.
The snarky comment was out of character for her recent behavior.
She has been ardently encouraging me to meditate and that has helped at least as much as the counseling.</p>
<p>EK, I had a therapist who died while I was seeing her. She had been ill for a while and we were sort of winding down, but I went to her funeral and met a client of hers who was totally bereft. My sympathy and empathy!</p>
<p>It can be very difficult to find the right counselor. I stuck with a dud for several years and wish I had not. I am seeing someone wonderful now and it makes all the difference in the world. I wish you the best finding someone who really gets you and who really helps.</p>
<p>EK, I am sorry to hear about your situation, and this is so painful for a mother. Sseamom is on to something and has said what I was thinking- how your daughters favor your H. With your diagnosis of AS, it is easy to focus on your label, but he has his part too. You mentioned also that you were the target child growing up.
Family systems involve people taking on different roles for stability. In dysfunctional families there tends to be a scapegoat, hero, lost child, and other roles. Google this topic. If any family member steps out of the role, the entire system is less stable, and family members will push the member back into the role. If you have been the scapegoat, please don’t blame yourself. You have been a good mom, and you’ve done the best you can for your family.
You can’t control any of them. I know you desperately want a connection with your D, but you can’t make her do anything. All you can do is change yourself, and as hard as it is, you have a therapist to help the process.
When you contact your D, it is with the hope for something from her. She can sense this. I think contact of this nature isn’t going to help. Contact can be according to your values- as a parent, but not expectations of her to be different. You are a good mom with love to give. IMHO, I think it’s reasonable to make the occasional kind of contact that comes from your heart- not a reaction to her. The birthday and Christmas idea is good- but just a short note that says “Happy Birthday, I love you- Mom” without any expectations back. I also agree not to write her out of the will. Hopefully that is a long ways away.
Take care of yourself. One day at a time.
And by the way, although AS may have been seen by your family as a difficulty, it comes with gifts: intelligence, loyalty, sensitivity, creativity, and sometimes special talents. Focus on what you have to offer the world, and develop some of those passions.</p>
LasMa, This is a really good strategy. It is better than my strategy of not providing any unsolicited advice at all. Sometimes I have a mixed feeling about how much I should back off from DS’s life now. On one hand, I would still like to share with him something (and sometimes I found I missed him terribly); on the other hand, if my “skill of getting the idea across” is not that good, it may be better not to share it at all. The art of parenting is not easy.</p>
<p>EK4, I do not have any good suggestion to you, but I think I could feel your pain.</p>
<p>So sorry so many are dealing with these issues. The transition into ADULT is a very tricky one and more challenging for some than others. We find that our kids are better at insisting contact when we dial ours way back, so it’s all THEIR idea to get in touch. It’s easier said than done to make the shift. It helps to get very busy and find something to throw energy into. </p>
<p>Perhaps when the nurturing urge kicks in, connect with one of the many good charities in your area who could use your talents and energy? An animal shelter? Schools? Meals on Wheels? They could all use committed volunteers. Sometimes we need to give ourselves and others space to grow our relationship to a new level. </p>
<p>It does sound like it would be worthwhile finding a new therapist who can help guide you at this challenging time instead if one who JUSTS listens. Sorry you have had two therapists who died. That must have been very difficult. </p>
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