how do you make the big decision to leave a spouse?

Parent Cafe
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<p>Heck, most probably wouldn’t even be inclined to discuss it among fellow male friends IRL until the situation’s already gone supercritically bad or the breakup/divorce already occurred. And when it does get brought up, the conversation tends to rapidly turn to what group activity we all can do together to get his mind off of his troubles. </p>

<p>One exception to this is if one male friend who is particularly trusted to be a good counselor and not bring it up with anyone else is available to discuss it one-on-one in a very discreet private setting. </p>

<p>Among friends/colleagues who exhibit more of the “typical female communicative styles”, relationships and the mostly negatives aspects seem to be a popular topic discussed in group settings. </p>

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<p>Just caught up with all the posts, so sorry for you the op ( and oldfort also). It’s terrible to think about a long term marriage falling apart. </p>

<p>OP, I felt so bad for you when you were describing the conversation about the sweater. It was a sad commentary about your and your H’s relationship. Who cares how men and women communicate? What matters is that we tolerate and accept our partner. And it was clear that your H doesn’t seem to respect you. </p>

<p>Anyone who has listened to their partner go on and on about their golf match. Or their race. Seriously I just listened to my BIL go on about his triathlon and dehydration and urinating. I was only mildly interested but I would never tell him that.Or tell my H how he should have listened to me when I told him to keep his elbow (or some such nonsense about his stupid golf game. How many times he told me he is going to take a golf lesson?. And every single time he asks me if I want to go also. And every single time I answer yes but he’s still asked me 10 times at least). </p>

<p>I think we all know that is not just one persons fault that a marriage falls apart. But both parties should want to work on making things better. It sounds like the OP’s H is not interested in doing that. Of course we have only heard her story. But his lack of wanting to see a counselor seems to me that he is not interested in working on this relationship. </p>

<p>OP, I have a friend who has a H that seems much like yours. It was bad, he was angry, she was depressed. She gained tons on weight, the kids all have various degrees of disordered eating. She finally told him she was leaving. When confronted with the fact that she was actually going to leave, he was desperate to make the marriage work. He agreed to counseling. Are things great? No I don’t think so. He’s trying to change his anger issues but it’s hard going. They are still together but idk if it will last. </p>

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<p>OP, the ignore feature is a great thing. There are a few people here who are not being helpful and I know what I would do ;)</p>

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<p>OP, my heart goes out to you. I have, several times in 27 years of marriage, made the decision to stay with my spouse–in spite of some very serious issues. Big ones. I don’t want to share details here, but you can PM me if you want–I will say my situation relates to yours in some ways. Very complicated, but I would say that some of the reasons we chose to stay married are: for children/future grandchildren, extended family/community relationships, etc., for financial reasons (not having to set up separate households), Because I do not want to start over–I am not at all interested in starting a relationship with someone else. (I want the life I have, but with improvements.) I am not telling you to stay with an abusive spouse, but I wonder if he will crumble when he sees you are serious about leaving. I wonder what he would think if he read this thread–or if you printed up your original post and let him read it? Have you tried writing a letter to tell him what you’re really thinking/feeling these days? Let him read it while you are not around so he cannot shout or argue with you about it and you will have a chance to get through (perhaps) to him. He said he will not leave, but will he beg you to stay? </p>

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<p>Begging someone to stay doesn’t necessarily equal change (nor do I think atomom was suggesting that). I know in my divorce the begging to stay/change quickly soon became resentment. Women are disporportionally the leavers. Often it seems they /WE raise some little flags, if we get no response we stew for years, then DECIDE and announce. And once we are in that place there is no going back bc no change he makes will be enough because, I at least, was DONE. </p>

<p>If you want real change, then don’t wait until seconds before midnight. </p>

<p>Also as a divorced person you (non-specific you) need to take ownership of your role, maybe that can’t be fully done until some time later, but for example if day to day if you fail to clearly communicate in a way that a reasonable person would understand then you could face the same patterns in your next relationship. </p>

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<p>OP – I feel for you. I could have started this thread a few years ago. I filed for divorce from my husband in February. Kids are now 18 and 21 (I waited until they were at that age) and I was very unhappy for a long time. Oldfort – sorry to hear your news too – didn’t realize we were in the same boat, and both breadwinners. There were many reasons I left the marriage but the most upsetting one was that I had discovered some financial activity my H had kept a secret from me which was just devastating. My business isn’t doing that great but I figured as bad as divorce might be financially, it would be better if he wasn’t spending $4500 of my hard earned money on Old Master prints. </p>

<p>Back to the OP – some of what you describe with your H’s behavior sounds an awful lot like aspects of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Google it and you’ll find tons of articles on the internet by Sam Vaknin. My H fit it to a T – self-absorbed, he’s always right, verbally abusive. Yours doesn’t sound that bad but they are absolutely impossible people to communicate with. And as I’m finding, vicious in a divorce.</p>

<p>re: attorneys – if you were in NY, I’d have some names for you :slight_smile: But you’re not (community property state gave it away). You can do a consultation with an attorney (around here it costs $250) and ask all your questions and see if you feel comfortable with them and how they handle your questions. I met with 4 in all over the years.</p>

<p>I have been very very careful to only say nice things about H to the kids. He has not done the same, but I can’t control his actions. I am just so happy to be out of the marriage. S has a girlfriend, and they were joking and laughing and I said “I can see you two feel so comfortable with each other. I didn’t feel that way with your dad.” Not to bash his dad – just to give him a sense of what a good relationship is and what I felt I was missing.</p>

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<p>Just one added thought…whatever you choose going forward, whether it is to leave your H or to stay and try and patch it together, based on personal experience with life changing decisions (mine was not with divorce, but believe me, it was a doozy), be aware that you may question your decision, wonder if you made the right one, get down on yourself for not trying harder to do X or Y, wonder about the impact on other people and so forth, and you probably will face those coming at you from various angles disapproving of what you end up choosing,or worse, people approving of what you choose but (to you) for the wrong reasons. It kind of goes with the game, and it is why I encourage you, unlike what I did,to keep going to see a counselor or therapist…I didn’t, and I paid a price for not doing that, in helping me reconcile the choices I made and in handling people’s reactions,some of which were surprisingly vicious and it left me reeling for a long time…</p>

<p>There will be self doubt I suspect, at varying levels (some people make decisions like you face, and suddenly end up very centered and peaceful, others fret, have anxiety, most seem to have a mixture of both IME), and the biggest one is if you make mistakes, if you make wrong turns or perhaps at times backslide on your decision, don’t beat yourself up, this is a major change in your life, and few people have the kind of constitution IME where they make these without feeling regrets, fear, self recrimination mixed with jubilation, satisfaction , etc…One of the only things that helped me were the words of the therapist I had used, who told me time and again that when we make decisions, we need to trust ourselves, and that when making decisions the perils we see often turn out to be over exaggerated, and that what can seem like a perpetually dark tunnel often has light not too far away:). </p>

<p>I wish you well, I hope it works out for you whatever you (and your H) choose, at least speaking for myself the last thing in the world I want to see is a relationship breaking up, but in the end I hope and pray you find the right thing for yourself and can become happy and satisfied with what you choose. </p>

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<p>OP - My concern is for your kid who I think is just going to be starting college? I’m wondering of it would be better for the him/her to know before they head off to college rather than say in the middle of 1st semester… Maybe you can talk to your counselor and see what they think? Even if you aren’t getting along with your spouse I assume it’s going to be an emotional time for your kid. Also there will be questions like about who do I stay with when I come home for breaks etc…</p>

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<p>I still say read about Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder. It is a more subtle disorder that presents very much like you are saying…THinks he is the expert, annoyed if people don’t do things the “right” way, resistant to change…</p>

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<p>Whatever the reason is for the challenges from OP’s H, some people get to a point where it isn’t the sort of living they can endure anymore. They can’t breathe, much less flourish. They are not only afraid of the continued conflict (or the constant threat of conflict,) but it throws the rest of their lives off balance. They know they are stunted.</p>

<p>On the other side, for many, the good points and good times are good enough, strong enough, enduring enough, that they can put up with the occasional crap, disagreements, lecturing, compromises, whatever it is. Those people might choose to stay, despite, because they feel they can manage and, on balance, things are more good. That takes a very frank, unafraid, unintimidated weighing. And I don’t mean accepting physical or verbal abuse.</p>

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<p>People work things out in different ways. One couple I know have two homes. The wife spends most of her year at one home and the husband at the other. (The homes are in different states, btw). And while having two homes is expensive, it may be cheaper than divorce. They spend occasional weeks together. They travel a lot, sometimes together, sometimes separately. They see the kids and the grandkids together. For all intents and purposes, they are divorced emotionally but not legally or financially. They have lived this way for at least ten years. </p>

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<p>H has a cousin who is like the couple above. They have grown kids and grandkids. They both have lovely houses In the same city (probably $1.5M apiece) and new long term romantic partners but are still technically married and do some social functions as spouses. It seems to work for them. </p>

<p>There are many ways for relationships to change or end, it really depends on the parties involved. </p>

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<p>This book has been helpful to people I know in a similar situation:</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Splitting-Protecting-Borderline-Narcissistic-Personality/dp/1608820254”>http://www.amazon.com/Splitting-Protecting-Borderline-Narcissistic-Personality/dp/1608820254&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Best wishes to the OP and Oldfort.</p>

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<p>So my wife works with a woman who was divorced many years ago. When she first got to know her, this woman told my wife how awful her ex was, not unlike what we hearing on this thread: argumentative, angry, non-communicative, narcissistic, and difficult to live with. However, over the years, as my wife got to know this colleague, she discovered that she has a very toxic personality. She is continually gossiping about people, backstabbing them and picking fights with people for reasons no one can comprehend. I say this because my wife after hearing only one side had thought the ex spouse, who she never met, must have been a terrible person. However, after getting to know this woman, she now has concluded the story must be much more complicated than what she was hearing. </p>

<p>I am only bringing this up because when you hear only one side of the story, you may not be fully appreciating the complex dynamics involved in a marriage where it is unlikely one person is entirely the victim and the other totally at fault. I am not saying it couldn’t be as simple as this but I think it is probably highly unlikely. Which is why I would be very hesitant to offer any advice to anyone on the internet unless I personally knew both the husband and the wife.</p>

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<p>I don’t feel we need to hear “the other side.” The point is, the OP is unhappy in her marriage. She never said she had a terrible husband or that she was the victim. She never said she was the perfect wife. She expressed her unhappiness in the relationship and how her husband’s personality affects her. She even indicated that he may not be happy in the relationship either. She expressed a desire to seek marriage counseling, but that the husband refused. And it doesn’t matter what she has done or what his side of the story is, because she came to seek advice as to what to do in her situation due to her unhappiness staying in this relationship. She never painted her husband as evil. He doesn’t have to be evil for her to be unhappy living with him. She even shared some positive things about their relationship. I don’t have to hear the other side to support the OP in her dilemma as far as what to do next due to how she is feeling and decisions she is contemplating.</p>

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<p>Whether it is virtual or IRL, you are only going to hear one side’s story. What I have told my friends is MY interpretation of the situation, whether it is right or wrong, it is my reality and that’s what matters. We are not here to judge OP, we are here to support her in what she perceives as a hostile environment for her. Assuming OP is completely wrong about her H, it is not important, what’s important is if they could change their interaction with each other. </p>

<p>A guy friend of mine who just went through marriage counseling told me that he didn’t realize how lonely his wife was because of his work. She thought he didn’t care any more, when in reality he was just too tired every night after a long day at work and long commute. Now he tries to get home earlier and spend time with his wife, not just with their children. In this case, my friend’s W misinterpreted my friend’s feelings, and my friend was willing to change in order to stay married.</p>

<p>Cross posted with sooziet.</p>

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<p>The reason some of us bring up personality disorders is because getting marital counseling is going to be less successful if personality disorders are involved. So that might be helpful for her in deciding how much effort to put into saving the marriage.</p>

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<p>Goldenpooch, do we ever hear both sides of any story here? We respond to what is written. It’s a blog and we are anonymous fellow parents. Certainly there’s no way to know if any poster is telling the truth or is just a ■■■■■ or a self-deluded person, but it is what it is. And for every story you can tell about your wife’s acquaintance, I am sure there are many or more of long-suffering spouses who speak the truth.</p>

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The reason some of us bring up personality disorders is because getting marital counseling is going to be less successful if personality disorders are involved. So that might be helpful for her in deciding how much effort to put into saving the marriage.</p>

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<p>This is very true. And if there is a PD involved, then even tho in any marriage both spouses have faults, the one with the PD is usually the one that is far harder to live with (unreasonable, raging, irrational, wont take responsibility for wrongs, paranoid, jealous, black/white thinking, impulsive, lacking filters/boundaries, etc)</p>