how do you make the big decision to leave a spouse?

Parent Cafe
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<p>I know what goldenpooch means – I have friends like that too (but I’m not saying that OP is like that). Some friends (male and female) seem to want to be the first one to say “it wasn’t me – it was her/him!”. I don’t think that way. I think divorce is terribly sad and it’s not one person’s fault.</p>

<p>One thing I heard early on: you never know what goes on inside a marriage. And also, we are different people with different people (I’m not saying this right) but maybe I brought out my H’s bad side and vice versa, and we each would have been happier and sunnier with someone else. </p>

<p>To the OP – I found counseling for myself very helpful. It was good to have a trained professional who knew me and could act as a sounding board for my fears and concerns. It took me a long time (10 years) to get up the courage to leave. I didn’t want to get divorced, but after a certain point, I couldn’t stay in the marriage anymore.</p>

<p>Keep us posted.</p>

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<p>I agree with the others that the specifics of “who is right and who is wrong” are irrelevant. The relevant fact is that a poster has pretty much reached the end of her willingness to stay in her marriage without certain conditions being met (mainly marriage counseling).</p>

<p>This is not about “men are bad, women are saints” or “guys are saints and wives are just harpies.” I think most of us get that.</p>

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<p>When in doubt, sometimes a kind word is the nicer action. No need to speculate because a poster knows of a different situation, somewhere else, that someone told them about, that someone else judged faulty. Please.</p>

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<p>I’m no expert on the decision in question as I’m about to hit my 30th anniversary, but we have a number of friends who have gotten divorced. Some have been relatively amicable but in some cases either the husband or the wife became vindictive. We saw one case in which the husband, the CEO of a company, had put a bunch of the assets in trust abroad and frozen the US-based assets the wife had access to – so that it would have been hard for her to pay for a lawyer. His plan was, I guess, to “starve her” into agreeing to a really inequitable deal. Fortunately, her brother from across the country was a lawyer or a deal guy and got everything fixed.</p>

<p>I work with someone who exhibits a lot of the behaviors OP described in her husband – except the guy also has a charming hyper-sincere mode, which he enters when he realizes he’s gone overboard in criticism/anger. He can’t accept criticism and even worse than that, he can’t admit that he has made a mistake. So, he will organize all situations so if they don’t work out, he won’t be the one to be blamed. Simple example and pathetically hilarious. There was a meeting that someone in the office was trying to schedule and he didn’t really want to go but didn’t want to be blamed for tanking the meeting. So, he called my assistant to find out when I would (and would not be available for that day) and then proposed to the group a time when I couldn’t be there, so I would be the one who would be responsible for the meeting not taking place. He’s very demanding of others and is very critical – and he used to run through administrative assistants who would literally be in tears until we gave him a bunch of coaching – but he has even higher standards for himself. Plus, he has an incredible capacity to rationalize his behavior as correct/taking the moral high ground and yours as the opposite. We once consulted a psychologist about him and learned that this is a common personality type among high achievers – he’s extremely successful and very well paid. But, this personality type also has delusions about grandeur – they dramatically overestimate the magnitude of their contributions. We’ve learned that problems are much less frequent if we don’t assign responsibility for problems that arise (that would be blame, which he couldn’t accept especially if he knows he is wrong) and instead talk about how we could avoid this problem in the future. The message gets internalized much better. The delusions of grandeur and associated sense of entitlement are harder to deal with. </p>

<p>Anyway, I can imagine that in divorce, he would be 100% certain that he was in the right legally and morally about everything and work like crazy to deny the wife assets. So, I’d be worried about that here. </p>

<p>I can’t offer counsel on how to decide to divorce or not, but it seems like the OP has made her decision.</p>

<p>Given her husband, I believe that the OP needs to be prepared for a vindictive divorce battle over assets but not expect it (and in doing so, make it inevitable). One should try to avoid a vindictive battle as that just eats up money, but it requires two parties to choose a more collaborative approach, not just one. I think divorces are typically better handled through mediation, but prior to attempting mediation, the OP should get a lawyer to help her understand the rights she would have if she went to court (and what it would cost to get there) and what would likely be decided by a judge if she went to court. Understanding the trusts is important, whether the husband could move them out to his own accounts as soon as he knows a divorce is imminent (and if so, how to prevent this or make it less likely and more easily documented), and how the courts would treat the trust. She should, as a number of you have said, be clear on what and where all of the assets are. Finally, she needs to be prepared for a lesser standard of living post-divorce. </p>

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<p>Agree with the idea of an attorney before mediation, as much fore-knowledge as possible. In my friend’s case, they were amicable, but there were a number of important points the mediator just plain old missed. Eg, they agreed to split college costs 50/50, without covering the income inequity. His 180k vs her 40k, at the time. As the kids applied to college, her job went away (consulting in a field that ebbs and flows.) And the new wife started making noises. Fortunately, the FA was miraculous, friend eventually found a better position- and the ex was willing to step in a bit more for year two.</p>

<p>It’s an example of needing to anticipate all sorts of details. At first, the mediator wanted to suggest the usual cap on the number of years Ex covered her health insurance. Friend negotiated it longer. Etc. OP has the college funds set, she says. But nothing should be left that could jeopardize that dollar amount. There will be many details beyond splitting today’s assets and ensuring some alimony.</p>

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<p>We all have our friends stories of the financial shenanigans spouses, usually husbands, do to screw the wife in a divorce. In one case, the husband left the U. S., works in Europe, has not paid a dime in child support and is beyond the reach of the U. S. divorce courts to make him pay. Another friend, has to go to court every year to get a court order ordering her ex to make good on his overdue alimony payments. </p>

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<p>I am always leery of those who malign their spouses publicly when going through a divorce (I don’t think OP has done this.) My experience is that once the proceedings are underway most women have one or two close friends/family that they turn to for support to help them through the ordeal. Most people consider these things very private and keep it that way beyond their inner circle.</p>

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<p>“A guy friend of mine who just went through marriage counseling told me that he didn’t realize how lonely his wife was because of his work. She thought he didn’t care any more, when in reality he was just too tired every night after a long day at work and long commute. Now he tries to get home earlier and spend time with his wife, not just with their children. In this case, my friend’s W misinterpreted my friend’s feelings, and my friend was willing to change in order to stay married.”</p>

<p>The sad part is this kind of thing is often at the root of issues in a marriage, where the two parties misinterpret what the other person is doing and why. I just finished a couple of books written by a sex therapist designed to help couples keep the flame alive, and one of the things he writes about is where assumptions one has for the other (typical male/female things, misconceptions, etc), cause a spiral leading to getting upset, one assumes the other one isn’t interested, they get upset, that person thinks they haven’t pleased the other person, gets upset, etc etc. And being the person who works the long hours and has the long commute, this kind of thing is common, especially when kids are taking up time and so forth. The husband might interpret the wife’s unhappiness as being with him, not wanting him, where she basically is expressing the opposite, and if they hadn’t been able to communicate this, it could become a death spiral…resentments added onto resentments, when the base of it is they love each other and were upset that it seemed like the other person didn’t want them…</p>

<p>With the OP’s post, my only criticism of H is if the OP told him she was unhappy and suggested counseling and he rejects it time and time again, that to me shows something about the person rejecting it, that I would criticize someone for, male or female. I have guys I work with who have gone that route grumble about how it turns into an attack on him, that the wife ‘gangs up’ and so forth, and didn’t win many brownie points in the ‘guys support club’ when I pointed out that if you don’t like a therapist, find another one you can work with, that even if it is just your perception the therapist is biased, it is okay to find someone else, because trust is important. Usually to be honest when the guys I am talking about balk at going to a counselor or therapist with their spouse, from knowing them I suspect a lot of it is they know they play a role in what is going wrong and don’t want to admit it, whether consciously or not (and that is just my take on things)…in any event, if someone doesn’t want to make an attempt to make it better they are definitely part of the problem IME. </p>

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<p>“if there is a PD involved, then even tho in any marriage both spouses have faults, the one with the PD is usually the one that is far harder to live with (unreasonable, raging, irrational, wont take responsibility for wrongs, paranoid, jealous, black/white thinking, impulsive, lacking filters/boundaries, etc)”</p>

<p>Yes. It’s not so much that one side is blameless and the other evil; it’s that often, one side is reasonable/thoughtful about problems and the other is unable to be. (Of course, there are dual-personality-disorder relationships, too, in which case everybody around them needs to duck and cover.)</p>

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<p>Well, some people don’t think therapy will help anything and if that’s what they think then they are probably right. </p>

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<p>That’s like the commercial about not tasting almond milk because you don’t know what it tastes like. I think a lot of people see therapy as an admission of failure. (After all, you wouldn’t be there if everything was manageable.) So they forego a chance to identify and heal wounds- or at least, assess with professional guidance. </p>

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<p>Maybe, but I do think you have to want to change. It’s a lot like drug or alcohol counseling. Dragging someone in is not likely to accomplish much if they aren’t ready or willing in the first place. It’s not magic. </p>

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<p>OP here again. Once again, thank you for all the posts. I have a full nest this summer and can only post when alone which is infrequent but I very much appreciate all the advice, words of comfort and words of wisdom. At this point, it’s hard to address specific posts as there have been so many but please know I have taken so much of what I’ve read to heart.</p>

<p>I really want my dh to be happy and have often thought he could be happier with someone other than me. I don’t want to be Pollyanna-ish and am sure I’d have a twinge here and there but, if we divorce, and dh can find happiness with someone else, I’d be thrilled. He deserves to be happy as do I.</p>

<p>When I can step back, I can say dh is a good man. He works hard at his job and certainly has a goal of making his wife and kids happy. I appreciate that. Unfortunately, we have never been about to resolve differences, minor or more major, in a constructive manner. Any sense that he has done something I perceive as wrong (as minor as him leaving a cabinet door open and my eyes fall upon it –not that I’ve said anything or even indicated displeasure in any overt way), I think, in some way, he believes he has failed in ‘making me happy’ and becomes angry because he has other positive traits and works hard to ‘keep me happy’. Not sure if this is coming across the way I mean it to but, for me, most of our problem is our inability to communicate effectively and, yes, dh’s ego and anger/control issues. Anyway, years of this type of interaction has resulted in an unhealthy environment.</p>

<p>I do think going to therapy for my dh is (1) admitting failure – not how I see it --and (2) uncomfortable and something he doesn’t see the point to as he’s not one to wish to discuss much of anything as it relates to feelings, relationships, interactions, etc. I know he’s not alone in this latter point. I, on the other hand, tend to think many things should be talked about – early and often. Not saying my style is right and his wrong; just that there’s a huge difference in our styles.</p>

<p>I do not believe dh has a personality disorder but, after the many posts suggesting it, I did look up several that were posted above and, while I could pick out one or two traits here and there, in no way did I feel that dh came anywhere close to meeting the descriptions. I’m guessing we all can find a trait or two that we have that could show up on a list we’d prefer it not!</p>

<p>On the practical side, I now know I have an excellent credit score :relaxed: and continue to try to reach my current one-of-choice. We have played phone tag so at least I know she’s real!</p>

<p>I believe I mentioned this earlier but, ever since I started changing my behavior as a result of therapy, dh has been less happy. I would love it if this decision could become a mutual one. It’d still be an incredibly rough road but not nearly as rough.</p>

<p>Today my goal is to try to have as good a summer with the family together as possible and see what things look like with an empty nest. I have no illusions that we will become happier…things are so tense now that I’m not even sure we can get to an even playing field—but, I’ll ask dh about therapy again (in the fall) and just see how I feel then. I will also consider a separation (not sure if he would consider one or not). In the meantime, I will continue to try to connect with the attorney, make sure I have copies and balances of every account we have, and continue to learn some things I need to learn (i.e., dh has always done the investing so I don’t know too much about it, and look into some of the books suggested on this thread).</p>

<p>I’m sure I’ve missed things I wanted to respond to while catching up but please know that I’ve read every post and have taken much from this thread. I’m sure I have a tough few months ahead but having some tasks to focus on helps me feel more in control.</p>

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<p>OP - I wish you a very nice summer with your family. Come back here if you have any questions or just want to vent. You are doing all the right thing. This is not an easy decision, so allow yourself sometime to figure out what’s right for you and your family.</p>

<p>For many states a separation is required before divorce could be filed. For some states, like NY, if it is uncontested then divorce could be filed almost as soon as the separation agreement is signed. The separation agreement is the most important document. It is the document which will state how the assets to be divided, amount of alimony and child support. This could be different for your state, and that’s why you need to consult a lawyer so you would know your rights and options.</p>

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<p>OP – glad to hear you have found a soul mate. I am wishing you both a lot of happiness.</p>

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<p>As always Shaw and others have great responses. Through my 30 years of marriage, it has been a theme that my husband felt responsible for my happiness.It took time but he came to finally understand that he was not chiefly responsible for this except when it it came to his part in it. I think it was the way he was raised… We have been through a lot together, and he is my rock. but it hasn’t always been easy. However, if I was walking on eggshells, and had to subjugate my thoughts and feelings the marriage would be done. For me living with this person would not be an authentic relationship, and would be a denial of myself. Think about what marriage is for, to have a helpmate. No matter what happens my H and I have each other’s back. We don’t abuse each other, and we try to make each others life easier. There was a time in our lives when I was not sure things would work out, my H wasn’t listening, finally I stated that things were going to change, that I wasn’t happy, and that what I wanted and needed was just as important as he and the kids. In my life this was a pattern of people pleasing that I had to break. I could not continue. As I changed he had to go with it. I am lucky he is not a vindictive or mean person. But he is very black and white and change is very difficult for him. Things are good now, but it could have gone differently.
I also have to add that a huge impetus for change and conflict in our lives was my breast cancer diagnosis at age 34, then 49. The first time caused all kinds of hell, the second more resolution. Don’t wait until you get sick to finally realize that you matter. I would totally protect myself financially, he doesn’t seem like he would be a good player.
I am sorry that things are like this for you, and Oldfort as well. </p>

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<p>@classof2015, your post is confusing…</p>

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<p>^which one – wishing her happiness?</p>

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<p>No… the soul mate reference. If you think the OP’s experience is life with a soul mate, something is wrong with your perspective or your reading of the OP’s posts.</p>

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<p>I believe it’s the attorney she is playing phone tag with, not a special friend.</p>