how do you make the big decision to leave a spouse?

Parent Cafe
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<p>I just want to say that I am very sympathetic about the OP"s situation, as it is obvious she is very unhappy. I am not sure why I am still posting but I saw this thread go in a certain direction (not due to the OP) that I thought needed responding to.</p>

<p>soozievt said, “she never painted her husband as evil. He doesn’t have to be evil for her to be unhappy living with him” Yes, I agree with this. The OP said in her opening post the following:</p>

<p>“my relationship does not bring me joy. DH does not like to communicate much, is very competitive, is arrogant and it’s very important for him to be right…always. Thus, my relationship brings me almost no emotional satisfaction and I feel sad and alienated quite often.”</p>

<p>Okay, I understand your unhappiness and thinking that it may be time to leave him. I suspect your husband may be very unhappy with the relationship as well but has suppressed the feelings because it is too painful to confront. Your description of your husband, however, has led to the following comments from some of the posters:</p>

<p>“This kind of guy is a woman’s nightmare. Actually he is everyone’s nightmare that has to deal with him. He does not negotiate, he is never wrong, he maintains control through intimidation and temper outbursts. It’s his way or no way.”</p>

<p>“I suspect he will blame you for all of the troubles if you decide to divorce. In the dark times, remember that his behavior is out of your control, only your reaction to his behavior is in your control.”</p>

<p>“He immediately escalated to shut you down. Classic and expected behavior. To break his pattern you need to continue your new behavior until he knows his temper tantrum is ineffective. Not for the faint of heart…and can get ugly.”</p>

<p>“The “he’s never hit me” part could change; anger is one thing, rage is another.”</p>

<p>Some of the posters have already diagnosed him as borderline personality or obsessive compulsive personality disorder. Talk about being armchair psychiatrists without the faintest idea of what they’re talking about. Even the OP in subsequent posts has had to tamp down the some of the inflammatory rhetoric by others about her husband. </p>

<p>So I why am I raising these issues? Because if the OP and husband decide to separate and divorce it is much better if it is done without anyone being demonized. Too many divorces result in useless acrimony, anger and unnecessary fighting. Not only is it bad for the pocketbook, but it can be physically and emotionally unhealthy for everyone in the family. You’re not leaving your husband because he is a bad person but because the relationship is not making you happy anymore. It may not be possible but it would be infinitely better for all concerned if this separation can be done amicably without pointing fingers or blaming anyone for its failure.</p>

<p>A friend of mine who is a marriage and family therapist has said the five stages of loss and grief can be applied to most divorces. As most people know, they are: denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. The faster you can negotiate the first two stages and can transition to the last three, the better it will be for you, your husband and your children</p>

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<p>Commonly, both spouses suffer financially after a divorce, since maintaining two separate households costs more than sharing one household. Also, as mentioned previously, services previously provided by the ex-spouse may cost additional money or time. For example, if the wife fixed the husband’s car and the husband ironed the wife’s clothes, after divorce, the wife may have to pay for cleaning and ironing services and the husband may have to pay for car repairs.</p>

<p>Obviously, in the context of this forum, the worse financial situation of the divorcing spouses can affect any kids who are college students or who will apply to colleges.</p>

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<p>But in this situation it appears that H has been the breadwinner while W has been a SAHM - and thus is no able to generate income for herself. Unless they are quite wealthy it is unlikely that the court would order H. to pay W. enough each month to cover the same lifestyle she has been enjoying, and it is also likely that shared assets (bank accounts) may be tied up for awhile pending the divorce. A lot depends on who retains possession of the family home – given what the OP has said about her H it is unlikely that she could force him to move out unless he agrees to leave. (She describes a personality that is hard to live with but in no way abusive). </p>

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<p>@intparent – thanks and I apologize – I was responding to what I thought OP was saying about finding someone she connected with (“continue to reach my current one of choice – at least I know she’s real”). And OPs first post said she had never felt fully comfortable with her husband, so I took that to mean she was hoping to find someone (like a soul mate) who she connected with more. Just relaying good wishes for the happiness but if I took it out of context and misread it, apologies to OP.</p>

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<p>There is a new show on Bravo called “Untying the Knot” and while it is obviously a very simplified reality show, it is interesting to see how the mediator helps divorcing couples divide certain assets. The goal is to compromise so that both parties feel ok with the result - not to have a clear winner and loser. They touch on everything from who gets the house to custody of the pets and how to divide sentimental objects. It’s simple, but interesting.</p>

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<p>There is a very useful little book called “Divorce Busting”. The OP is undecided, so she may want further input by reading the book. There has also been a worthwhile series of articles in the NY Times, interviews divorced couples looking back, some time after the divorce, and reflecting on their choices. Some are glad they cut the cord, others not so much.</p>

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<p>I’m just getting caught up with this thread and see that it’s gone off on a lot of tangents. I was in a similar situation and relate the OP’s original question… how to you make the decision?</p>

<p>Every time an incident happened, I’d say to myself “here we go again. Why do we still do this?” but talk myself out of making a change. I saw a therapists who suggested that I should leave, but I figured that was probably because they were only hearing my side of the story. I did start living my own life, but I still had to some home to an unhappy environment. I felt like I was stuck in the indecision. What helped me was a book called “Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay” by Mira Kirshenbaum. I’m a logical thinker and this approaches the question very pragmatically. I didn’t leave immediately after reading the book, but it did start me journalling my thoughts and the bulk of the unhappiness was eventually too much to ignore.</p>

<p>This thread has a lot of advice on trying to save your marriage or how to leave once the decision is made. Making the decision IS hard, and it’s important to be completely comfortable with it. Being in limbo is worse than either alternative.</p>

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<p>In case anyone else reading this thread is in my position, I thought I’d just give an update. I met with an attorney this morning ($375/hour – very expensive!) and found it very helpful.</p>

<p>I don’t know how much of this is state law but here’s what I learned:</p>

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<li><p>The state generally believes you should be supported at the level to which you’ve been accustomed (assuming that’s feasible with 2 households to support rather than one based on assets and, in this case, my dh’s wages) for the number of years equal to half your marriage. In my case, since I’ve been married for about 30 years, that’s 15 which would bring me to/past 65, the generally accepted age of retirement. Thus, it’s unlikely I would be “forced” to go back to work as spousal support is probable. (I’d actually love to go back to work but knowing the theory and the law was very helpful.)</p></li>
<li><p>If dh and I decide to go through mediation rather than work through attorneys (although we could have our own attorneys AND go through mediation), the mediator can’t be the one I consulted several months back as she wouldn’t be ‘impartial’. Or, she’d have to disclose that she saw me before (which, in my case, would infuriate dh so I now know to steer completely clear of her). The attorney I saw this morning is also a mediator so, unless i just used her as my attorney, we couldn’t use her as a mediator either. She told me where to get a list of mediators in our county and also recommended a couple.</p></li>
<li><p>I would be eligible to remain on COBRA for 36 months after the divorce is final through dh’s work. The premium might be high but this was great news.</p></li>
<li><p>I didn’t really understand the logistics of how this works…in my case, chances are, there will be some fight where I will just be at the breaking point and say it’s time to separate. (If I’m lucky, dh will be at that same point.) We will probably separate and one of us, when ready, will need to meet with an attorney or mediator to file a petition. That would be the first step. Maybe that’s clear to others but I didn’t understand that.</p></li>
<li><p>I should get a copy or save a pdf of every bank or financial account we have to establish what our assets look like at this point in time. Copies of tax returns aren’t necessary. Just in case dh does try to move significant assets, etc., the copies would show what existed before the split.</p></li>
<li><p>At least in my case, trying to have some money (cash) available isn’t ‘necessary’ as, the attorney said, I have credit cards. In the absolute worst case scenario (which don’t believe will ever occur), even if dh moved all of our cash, assets, etc., I could use my charge card and immediately have an attorney take action to force dh to make things accessible to me again. Again, I’m just sharing what I was told. I do not believe I will ever be in this situation.</p></li>
<li><p>Related to #2, we could either use a mediator solely, we can use a mediator and either one or both of us have an attorney or we can each have an attorney without a mediator. For the second scenario, the attorney could be present at every meeting with the mediator or could just be ‘behind the scenes’ almost acting as a consultant. The cost for a mediator only with an “easy/easier” process is about $6,000. Using an attorney without mediation could cost about $5,000 each with, again, a fairly amicable, clear cut path. If it’s contentious, it sounds like the sky’s the limit.</p></li>
<li><p>It sounds like the main issue in my particular case would be around support. As mentioned above, the law could be on my side but there is a case to be made that I could be more self supporting (which, honestly, I completely agree with)! The other main issue is whether we could be conciliatory and work with a mediator, keeping costs down or whether it would get ugly with attorneys, fights over assets, etc.</p></li>
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<p>I do believe it was a very well spent $375!</p>

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<p>Sounds like a helpful discussion. Glad you are more aware of your options. </p>

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<p>Great, I agree that it was $375 well spent. </p>

<p>Re: #6. Are those cards in your name or are they joint accounts? Make sure that you have a card that your H cannot access to cancel it, dispute the charge, or do something else to freeze your ability to pay. </p>

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<p>Agree that, if cards don’t get paid, they aren’t available for expenses. Tho an Atty could take action, you’d need money in the interim. </p>

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<p>The other thing to think about is who is going to get the house… Your DH may not want to move out. So you should have a plan on where you might move to and what that all entails. </p>

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<p>I’d want to have cash in a separate kitty for deposits, etc. until you get on your feet. Interest on credit cards can accumulate quickly. Thanks for sharing this info. It is enlightening and good to know.</p>

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Keep in mind that under ACA you also have guaranteed coverage on the private, individual market – so you might shop for premiums. They may be more or less depending on circumstance. But if the finances don’t work out as anticipated - you could also be eligible for subsidies on the exchange in the year following your divorce- that would look only to your income (including income from alimony), but not assets. </p>

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<p>I was going to say the same as Calmom. Affordability depends on where you live, but in the state I live in there are quite a few options more reasonably priced than COBRA ($535/month per person for my COBRA). And the plans are very comparable in quality.</p>

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<p>Very good advice from the attorney. </p>

<p>My instincts are generally that a mediator makes sense but that your husband will be disinclined to be sensible at first and that you may need an attorney with you at the mediation (maybe at the second session if the first session doesn’t go well). But, it is possible for one spouse to be brow-beaten by the other, and it is not uncommon that the SAH W is browbeaten by the businessman H, especially if he is used to winning all arguments anyway.</p>

<p>Without knowing you or your H, I am still concerned about your H moving all assets out of joint accounts so that you have to get an attorney to have money to live on. This stuff really does happen because one partner or the other is really mad and wants to make the other one pay. In the one case I know, the divorce was initiated by the H because, unbeknownst to the wife, the H was having an affair with his secretary who then became pregnant. And he was the one moving the money away. Wasn’t even mad, just wanted to get a good deal, I guess.</p>

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<p>A friend is getting divorced. He was shut out of his accounts. Had to borrow money from others. Then had to hire an attorney so he could get some money.</p>

<p>Very ugly case. Over $100,000 in attorney fees each and looks like the fees may go to $1 million total. So much anger…</p>

<p>I do know a couple that divorced. They are friends after the divorce. Got a mediator. Saved a ton on attorney fees.</p>

<p>I would make sure I have access to money before there was a filing.</p>

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<p>To be honest has anyone on this thread known anyone where this actually happened? I wasn’t aware any states had alimony anymore but i’ve not been through the process and i don’t think we have alimony in my state. Personally, I’d be quietly finding a job right now, but states are very different how divorce law goes, so perhaps you are in a state where this actually happens and the ex actually has to pay something besides child support and a lump sum settlement. </p>

<p>Within my friends it’s gone both ways on the house. Sometimes the husband kept it knowing he could afford it even if his savings was depleted in the payout to the ex-wife and sometimes they had to sell it to satisfy the settlement. The women I know did not necessarily want the house, they wanted a clean break and cheaper digs. But yes, you need cards in your name only and you also should find out what if anything you are entitled to from pension/401K etc. </p>

<p>Early on page 2 or 3 people recommended meeting with a financial counselor. I would do this and put a budget together of what you think it is going to cost you per month assuming you move into a condo or a house you can maintain on your own. I personally think it’s going to be very important for you to understand what the hard costs are for living on your own as someone said it is not the same cost to split into two households. This may also shape how you might wish the mediation to go with regard to the finances and if it’s a lump sum settlement how to manage that money, especially if you don’t go start working. </p>

<p>If you leave, you also need that “plan”. Where are you going to live for months while the divorce winds through and what is that going to cost.</p>

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<p>Yes, I would advise to take 1/2 of money in joint accounts. Put this in an account under your name only.</p>

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<p>^^^Not sure I agree with that. It could look awfully aggressive to your DH and/or his attorney later.</p>