how do you make the big decision to leave a spouse?

Parent Cafe
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<p>You could get into huge trouble following booksworm’s advice to just “take” half the money. Yes, in theory it is your half – but there are all sorts of pitfalls to the self-help approach-- and it could hurt you long term.</p>

<p>On the other hand, I do agree that it is bad advice to not worry at all about expenses because you can just charge everything to your credit cards… what you would accomplish is that you would max out your own cards, running up a lot of debt that would fall under the “separate property” side of the equation. (Your credit cards, charges made post-separation) – and at the same time it’s possible that your credit lines could be cut back by the banks, even without your husband doing anything. They would see a big change in spending habits and the banks do have the legal ability to unilaterally reduce the credit line or even terminate an account because of a change in credit profile. (An post-separation, 0 income is a pretty big change). </p>

<p>One thing you can and should do immediately is open a separate bank account for yourself – if you have any source of separate property income whatsoever (such as gifts from family) - then deposit those funds in the separate account. If you have no money at all of your own, then you could set up the account with a nominal sum – but at least you have a place to put money that your husband can’t reach post-separation. </p>

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<p>How did you pay the $375 bill? In other words is there anyway your DH is going to find out you went to see a lawyer ie did you use a CC or write a check?</p>

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<p>Very solid advice, calmom.
Do not take large sums out of the trust - the posters are correct that H’s lawyer could use it against you. If you don’t have a cc in your name only, get one. If you do not have a separate bank account, open one, so you would have some safety net should your H try to cut off your access to the accounts he has access to. </p>

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<p>We got the whole thing done with just one lawyer, without a mediator. One thing we decided to do was to to keep a “family home” for our grown kids. Kids’ dad moved out, I stayed at our home and that’s where D2 would continue to come home to until she is self supporting. </p>

<p>A good friend went through an unexpected divorce 3 years ago. They sold their 5000 square ft house, dad moved into a one bedroom in NYC and mom moved to HI. My friend was so upset, she got rid of everything they had. She told their college kids to take what they wanted and rest was going to garbage. There is no home for their kids to go back to now.</p>

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<p>I appreciate everyone’s thoughts but, really, at least in my case (the OP), these scenarios will not occur. In terms of the house, I could keep it or let dh keep it if he wants it so it will become an asset and, in all likelihood, one will buy the other out. I will be happy to follow dh’s lead on this one. </p>

<p>I feel confident dh will not run off with all the money. Just for the sake of argument, if he did, not only do I believe the attorney that within very short order the court would order dh to restore things but I am very fortunate in that I have family who would be all too happy to loan me money should I ever, for whatever reason, find myself in dire circumstances. </p>

<p>I also will not open a separate bank account and move any money into it because, if dh did that, I would consider it a huge breach in the way we’ve structured our lives. I know he would not do it either and, again, just for the sake of argument, if he did, two wrongs don’t make a right. I really will be OK for whatever interim period I would potentially be short on funds. Again, in my situation, I do not believe dh will act unethically and, if he does, I know I’d be fine in the short run (supported by family) and in the long run (court battle).</p>

<p>Also, I do have credit in my own name (I confirmed this) and we have a small savings account which dh knows about but has never accessed. He’d have to think long and hard about which institution it’s even with (a credit union from one of our first jobs 100 years ago.) Were I to stay in the house (no mortgage), I’d be fine for maybe 6 months on what’s there. True, if I had to rent somewhere, it would go within maybe 2 months. Also, even if our credit limit was reduced, I would be fine – we have had our same credit cards for many, many years. Not only do I not anticipate this (because they seem to raise them unsolicited with too much frequency) but because I would not need nearly as much credit as we have.</p>

<p>Oh, and the whole idea around ‘making me whole – at the level to which I’ve been accustomed’ is dependent upon dh’s income. If the income isn’t there, then that ideal doesn’t work. Whether it’s there or not is not necessarily clear to me but knowing that I’d be entitled to SOME spousal support was great to hear. I do hope to find work but it certainly won’t be at the level of dh’s income and we live in a very expensive part of the country. My hope would be that I’ll be able to find work and get some level of spousal support and, between the two, live ‘comfortably’. Honestly, I would hope dh would be able to live comfortably too. And, in my case, I believe that may be feasible.</p>

<p>Anyway, I do appreciate everyone’s comments but, at least for me, I feel comfortable not pulling money out of our accounts and diverting it elsewhere and know that dh will not be deceptive and, if he did become so, that I have a safety net that would catch me.</p>

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<p>MichiganGeorgia, I paid in cash and didn’t take a receipt…no paper trail :slight_smile:
Old Fort, yes, I would hope that one of us would keep the house, at least for a few years, as my kids are all ‘unsettled’ and consider this home. If dh didn’t want it, I’d keep it.</p>

<p>Also, a not terribly close friend of mine went through an ugly divorce and her attorney advised her not to look for work until everything was settled in an effort to get more spousal support. Ended up working for her and she now has a nice job to boot (I don’t know whether her ex-h will go back to court to get it reduced) but that whole ‘keeping her at the level to which she’d become accustomed’ worked for her. I have no desire to have a ‘shark’ type attorney and have already started to keep my eyes out regarding a job. Realistically, the fall will be a more logical time though.</p>

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<p>How do you plan to pay bills post-separation? The day that you separate, your expenses are yours, and should not be paid with community property funds. The accounting is a lot easier if there is a separate checking account. </p>

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<p>A separation and divorce is a huge breach in the way you’ve structured your life. It is the biggest, largest breach possible. </p>

<p>From your posts I get the sense that you are very frustrated living with your husband, and perhaps quite angry with him as well, but it doesn’t sound like you are really ready to create a new and separate life for yourself. Your rationale for not taking the simple step of opening a checking account in your own name sounds like you are still very much emotionally tied the life you’ve had vs. the life you will have post-divorce. </p>

<p>In other words, I think that partners who are truly ready to leave a relationship aren’t worried about disrupting the way their married lives have been structured. I’m not talking about doing something dishonest --like opening an account and then siphoning $50K of community property fund into it – I’m talking about the simple act of setting up the account you will need to pay your bills down the line-- that could be opened with a $20 deposit. If you can take $375 cash out of a shared account to pay a lawyer without telling your husband, I think that you could easily open a checking account in your name if you wanted. </p>

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<p>Count me among the marriages for whom setting up a separate account in preparation for a possible separation would be considered as the nuclear option.</p>

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<p>I know someone who recently went through a divorce, who had a lawyer behind the scenes. It worked well for her. They had a mediator, but she took all agreements to a paid-by-the-hour attorney consultant, who advised my friend on what stances to take, and double checked for accuracy, fairness, etc. In this case, the attorney found a number of errors made by the mediator, saving my friend both money and headaches. </p>

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<p>OP, I think how your husband reacts is dependent on whether or not he too is unhappy, or if this will be a total surprise to him. If he wants the marriage to continue I would not count on him being reasonable in the divorce proceedings. If on the other hand he feels the same way you do, I think the whole thing will proceed as you describe. </p>

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<h2>I also will not open a separate bank account and move any money into it</h2>

<p>How do you plan to pay bills post-separation? The day that you separate, your expenses are yours, and should not be paid with community property funds. The accounting is a lot easier if there is a separate checking account.</p>

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<p>the above sounds odd. the day they separate, each will have expenses…and hers and HIS should be paid fom community prop funds (his income). after all, how would he be paying for his?</p>

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<h1>… because, if dh did that, I would consider it a huge breach in the way we’ve structured our lives</h1>

<p>A separation and divorce is a huge breach in the way you’ve structured your life. It is the biggest, largest breach possible.</p>

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<p>I’m just going to throw this out there. I think the OP is being naive. the whole going to an atty, secretly paying, and seeking a divorce may be perceived as sneaky, and a breach. I think that if the H is annoyed that a portion of his income will now be siphoned off to his separated/divorced wife for many, many years, he is going to be livid and all hell with break loose.</p>

<p>If the H wants this divorce, but has been lazy about seeking, then fine. but if he is against it and sees it as half his money being diverted, he is going to be PO’d and I would watch out. </p>

<p>I dont know what his retirement would be, but if it would be just enough for ONE household to live comfortably, then splitting it into two for two households may mean that both of you will struggle. If that means that H wont be able to retire as planned (for instance, if he has a goal of retiring in 5 years, but now wouldnt be able to retire for many more years, he may not take that lightly either. I worked with a guy who said he would delay retirement as long as he could to prevent his exwife from getting those half payments…his payback for her initiating the divorce.</p>

<p>the op keeps saying that her H would be angry if he found out this or that…so why does she think he wouldn’t be totally livid about much/all of this???</p>

<p>frankly, from what Ive seen, only men who have a huge income are not very annoyed/angry when their wives decide to leave them and the men have to support in the style the women have grown accustomed to.</p>

<p>are you in Maryland? I think it has that support situation of half the marriage.</p>

<p>I would be concerned about the cobra costs…that sounds like a chunk that will eat into your support. </p>

<p>we all wish the OP well, but if her H is the type to be angry at surprises, rejections (and that is what this is), money upheavals, etc, then expect some paybacks that wont be pleasant.</p>

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OP, I think how your husband reacts is dependent on whether or not he too is unhappy, or if this will be a total surprise to him. If he wants the marriage to continue I would not count on him being reasonable in the divorce proceedings. If on the other hand he feels the same way you do, I think the whole thing will proceed as you describe.</p>

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<p>I completely agree with one exception…even if the H agrees with the divorce idea, once things become clear to him (support level, splitting assets, splitting retirement, etc), his mood may also change.</p>

<p>If he has been used to having his wife take care of stuff (cook, clean, laundry) which he justifies because he supports her, he may become very annoyed that he will lose those benefits but still have to pay. My mom’s friend’s exH kept trying to drop off his laundry for his exwife to do since he felt that he was still supporting her, so she should still support him (with chores). lol (crazy, but I kind of see his point…if he has to support her in the style she has grown accustomed to, then shouldn’t she have to support him in the style (laundry, cooking, etc) that he has grown accustomed to…some lawyer might make that case someday…lol.</p>

<p>Many have no idea that spousal support still exists or to the extent for long marriages. I know a man who had no idea that his ex would get half of his retirement and that he had to name her as beneficiary for life insurance until he retired. </p>

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<p>When they separate, his income will no longer be community property - it will be his separate property – and ideally he should also set up his own separate bank account.</p>

<p>If, for example, they separate on Sept. 1 --then everything he earns through August 31 is community property and everything he earns from Sept 1st going forward is his separate property. The actual physical date of separation may not be that clear, but she will have to specify a date when filing the divorce papers and that will be seen as the dividing line for the future.</p>

<p>If they are amicable, then they can agree as to what is to be paid out of the joint bank accounts – for example, daughter’ college tuition – but post-separation, they are each legally responsible for their own expenses and not the other’s. The money he pays her in spousal support will come from his separate property and when she receives it, it will become her separate property. For tax purpose, it will be a deduction for him and taxable income for her. </p>

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<p>Yes, agree some of this is mighty concerning. My first reaction was also that divorce IS a “huge breach.” </p>

<p>Sorry, but this is the same way I’d speak with a friend. This isn’t about “two wrongs not making a right.” (If being “nice” were effective, you wouldn’t be in this situation.) It’s about reasonable and safe- and smart- protection of yourself, going forward. It’s not a cakewalk, it is a legal situation, dissolving a marriage/partnership. </p>

<p>This is NOT about “Well, if everything goes fine, we don’t have problems.” It IS about the things that could go wrong. It is about anticipating and projecting. Not assuming. Eyes wide open. Some women are the primary breadwinners and are financially savvy-- in this case, you are the dependent. </p>

<p>How are you going to pay bills, going forward? It’s not “6 months.” When you said you had an old savings account-- if it would only cover rent for 2 months, it’s obviously not much. </p>

<p>You’ve got to know what the bills are today, tomorrow and going forward- and where the funds would come from. If you keep the house, property taxes, home insurance, the boiler could fail, someone could hit your car. Maybe your home doesn’t sell immediately. Credit cards are not free money- you have to pay them. Family “loan?” If your own family is so wealthy that supporting you would be a drop in the bucket- why a “loan” you may not be able to pay back? Would they just give it to you? </p>

<p>You don’t have a job today- there are professions where someone can walk back into a job, is that your situation? Otherwise, with the economy what it is- and yes, some age discrimination- you may find yourself surprised you don’t have the “power” you had as a younger woman. </p>

<p>Yes, if DH does something financially unfavorable, the lawyers could go after it, ask for restoration- what makes anyone think this is just a short term blip? That you’d even get the hearing within a short time frame or that whatever he did IS reversible? Anticipate, not assume. Face the what-ifs.</p>

<p>If the marriage is so bad you would consider divorce, especially considering one major complaint is his unpredictable moods, you cannot even begin to say,“He wouldn’t do this or that.” My gawd, even if he’s utterly willing to take care of you, his own attorney could throw in a wrench. Or the court could be backlogged. Or the former assets not retrievable. Please think this through entirely, so you are ok. </p>

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<p>I think it’s sound advice to open a checking account in your name, throw in $20 and if you indeed have family who can help, have then toss some $ in. The problem is that since you don’t work, you don’t have another address you can use. Do you get the mail in your home? </p>

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<p>And you MUST make copies of all financial statements and get tax returns for the last few years. And consider storing a copy at a trusted friend’s house.
And if you have significant jewelry, I might give that to the friend too. You describe your husband as quick to anger - I can picture such a person taking back jewelry or ripping up records. Even “nice guys” can become enraged. </p>

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<p>We should be clear about “separation.” When someone leaves, it is not a legal separation, hence H’s earnings should still be considered as community property. When separation is legal there is a separation agreement. The agreement clearly spells out how assets are to be divided, alimony/child support, 401K, health insurance, debt, college payment…I would think at that point, OP should have access to enough money to pay for her expenses. Of course, while they are negotiation for an agreement, H could cut OP off, but I would think her lawyer would be able to get it taken care of, and any judge wouldn’t view it very favorably.</p>

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<p>'My mom’s friend’s exH kept trying to drop off his laundry for his exwife to do since he felt that he was still supporting her, so she should still support him (with chores). "</p>

<p>That is hysterical. Men!</p>

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<p>Oldfort, I believe determining “date of separation” can vary per state law.</p>

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<p>OP should consult her lawyer about all of those issues. I am not a lawyer, but it’s hard for me to believer that a separation could be legal without an executed agreement. It would take less than 30 min to open a checking acct, IMO, there is no reason not to wait. I think it could possibly do more harm than good.</p>