<p>Gads, parts of your tale are so similar to my NY friend’s. In the case of my bff, she saw it coming, had been reviewing income and expenses, knew exactly what debt should 100% go to him… At the crest of mediation, he had slowed down his business, but she could show how it normally has some periodic downturns and insisted that the rebound be factored in. As soon as they did settle, his business magically grew again-- but she had considered it would and insisted, in her negotiations.</p>
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<p>Sounds like he’s an even worse self-absorbed asshat about the whole affair than what I had thought. </p>
<p>Some initiators of divorce do so because they want a complete separation from everything associated with the spouse they’re divorcing, including the children. It also seems like he didn’t realize the full implications of what divorce entailed and when it hit him during divorce proceedings, he offloaded the responsibility/blame for the divorce onto his spouse and kids. Even though he initiated the whole process. </p>
<p>I really feel for your sister and the kids. </p>
<p>“He walked in one night after work. My sister said, “how are hotdogs for dinner?” His reply was, “I want a divorce” and he handed her the papers. He left her. He already had an apt. in NYC and it was obvious had been planning it for awhile. My sister was taken completely by surprise.”</p>
<p>While I agree that the above guy sounds horrible, I’ve known where the spouse has to set up a place to stay and have all their ducks in a row BEFORE they initiate a divorce. Usually its the wife though…</p>
<p>“he offloaded the responsibility/blame for the divorce onto his spouse and kids”.</p>
<p>This is scary but common. Guilt is a huge motivator and makes people think illogically and unfairly all the time so they can feel better about themselves. Just keep reminding yourself that you’re well rid of him! And what an idiot to divorce himself from his children and grandchildren. The in-laws too? Clearly he inherited their flaws. </p>
<p>A friend of mine and her husband separated more than 5 years ago and are finally signing the papers now. Why did it take so long? He balked about 3 years ago during mediation because he “didn’t feel like” paying any spousal support. (She and the mediator had just asked to follow the state guidelines for Maryland) As they sat with the judge, he complained about how long it took and blamed her for it! He had conveniently forgotten any of his part in the process. He also complained that she “did nothing” when she was a SAHM with their young child. She homeschooled the kid and worked part time but that doesn’t count to him. Good riddance to bad rubbish!</p>
<p>P.S. He initiated the separation out of the blue also.</p>
<p>"I really feel for your sister and the kids. "</p>
<p>It was extremely awful for all of them, but she meet a man about 6 months later and he was with her the whole five years it took to be settled. Then they got married. He has been a wonderful stepfather to both her daughters. At some point before that, the ex also refused to get a “Get” (Jewish divorce) and I believe the Judge ordered him to. </p>
<p>After the divorce was final the only way the girls could find out anything about their dad was by Googling him. That is how they found out he had gotten remarried and a year later the new wife died from Melanoma. The googled and the obit came up! </p>
<p>“The spouse has to set up a place to stay and have all their ducks in a row BEFORE they initiate a divorce.”</p>
<p>Because the ex did that, my sister also had to hire a forensic accountant to determine if he had anything hidden. Ex was also an accountant (CFO for Wall St. firm) so it was not unreasonable to think he had hidden assets. I don’t believe they uncovered any. </p>
<p>Greenwitch, I think this scenario is more common then most people think. </p>
<p>That is why, even though the OP says her H would never do such things - one just never knows. </p>
<p>You know how there are signs, “In God we trust, all others must pay cash,” or similar. It’s called preparation for a reason. None of us can KNOW to a certainty how we or our partner will definitely respond in the event of a separation or divorce after being together for a decade, two or even three.</p>
<p>Several women I know had divorces which brought out very ugly personas that were very out of character of their ex. It’s important to have assets of up to 6 months of living expenses as well as a place to live before broaching any divorce or separation, IMHO. Once the subject I’d raised, it can’t be unsaid or forgotten and will start a chain of events of its own. </p>
<p>Not sure how the trust in OPs case will affect options. </p>
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<p>This is not accurate for my state. The date of separation is determined by the date that is GIVEN on the divorce papers . So for example, when I filed for divorce, I wrote down the date of separation as being “December 20” even though it was several months later when I filed. </p>
<p>IF my husband had disagreed about the date, then he could have filed a response specifying a different date. But usually the parties don’t disagree about that – I chose December 20 because that was the day my husband told me he was moving out and left the house (without returning). </p>
<p>So it would be very possible for the OP to move out on Sept 1, not file paperwork until December, but have Sept 1 be the date of separation – and if there is dispute over separate vs. community property, the courts will look at that as the date of separation.</p>
<p>And there definitely does not have to be any separation “agreement” - the more typical path is that the party initiating the divorce will go to court for a preliminary order for a temporary award of child support and spousal support. And again, the court will look at the date given by the parties as the actual date of separation, even if several weeks or months have gone by.</p>
<p>If the W. moves out on September 1, and then files for divorce the following April and tries to claim that the separation didn’t happen until April – then the husband would almost certainly file a response saying that the actual date of separation was Sept. 1. The wife can’t have it both ways – she can’t decide that she wants a divorce and also wants a community property interest in her husband’s earnings after she moves out (or kicks him out) but before there is a settlement agreement or court resolution. </p>
<p>@oldfort
If your rationale was filed, it would create a motivation for the lower-earning partner to delay a settlement agreement as long as possible-- especially if the higher earning spouse had an expectancy of a pay raise or a bonus. </p>
<p>See:
Legal Zoom: <a href=“http://www.legalzoom.com/divorce-guide/community-property-separate-property.html”>http://www.legalzoom.com/divorce-guide/community-property-separate-property.html</a></p>
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- See more at: <a href=“http://www.cadivorce.com/california-divorce-guide/what-to-expect/significance-of-the-date-of-separation”>http://www.cadivorce.com/california-divorce-guide/what-to-expect/significance-of-the-date-of-separation</a></p>
<p>The OP has posted online that she wants a divorce… she did not post asking for her rights if there is a trial separation – so it’s pretty certain that if she tell her husband she wants a divorce and moves out (or he moves out) - then that is the date of separation. Every dollar the husband earns after that date is his separate property. That’s why the OP needs to have all of her ducks in a row before she announces her intent and moves out. </p>
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If you think it through clearly, you could figure out why even the lower-earning partner would still want to settle earlier rather than later. No need for me to point out the obvious.
I don’t believe it is so clear cut, any good lawyer would tell you that.</p>
<p>OP should really consult her lawyer because each state is different when it comes to divorce.</p>
<p>I like how this thread ( at least by a few posters) seems to have become a huge rant against men and how these poor vulnerable women must protect themselves from the bad brute, who will probably eat you alive unless you’re lawyered-up. Got some news for some of you posters: many of the most contentious divorces in the US are women represented by a battery of lawyers looking to take their rich husbands to the cleaners. In my community, a female owner of the local newspaper had a divorce which was nothing short of WW 2, where she was to able extract the largest settlement ever in the history of divorces. </p>
<p>I have a friend who is a very reputable divorce attorney and he has told me that most of the time the women are much more vindictive and irrational, particularly when it is the husband asking for the divorce.</p>
<p>I dont know who has been ranting, but many of our responses are in regards to the OP’s own words that insinuate there her H gets very angry, and would get very angry if he found out this or that. She has given the impression that he is difficult and a hot-head. We are not talking Alan Alda here.</p>
<p>The concerns posted have been in line with her words. </p>
<p>both sexes can be difficult in a divorce…particularly when the other spouse is requesting. Women sometimes play games with child visitation and such. Men sometimes play games with spousal/child support.</p>
<p>Think, GP. Op is a woman considering divorcing a man and we are giving her advice from that perspective. You need advice? We’d consider your perspective, if you did.</p>
<p>Would you prefer women not protect their interests? </p>
<p>@oldfort - I don’t know where you live or what the law is in your state. I quoted a summary of the applicable law that applies to OP. I am a lawyer. If there is a dispute over the date, the court will look to the date of physical separation and the manifested intent of the parties. If the OP says, “I want a divorce” and then moves out, then the date she leaves will be the relevant one. She will not be able to file for a divorce without specifying the date of separation. </p>
<p>It is possible to conceive of a fuzzier fact situation – maybe the OP and husband have a fight, he announces, “I’m leaving!” – leave the house and returns a week later. Maybe they fight again with lots of stuff going back and forth. So maybe it gets all confused and its hard to figure out a specific date. </p>
<p>But that doesn’t seem to be what the OP has in mind. She didn’t ask, “how can I get my H. to listen to me and come to counseling” – she says she wants a divorce. </p>
<p>And if it comes to that, she needs to understand that the date of separation is going to be when the decision to leave is made and acted upon, not when papers are signed or when a court order is made. </p>
<p>How can a middle income couple ever keep either party living in the manner to which they have become accustomed unless we subject one of the parties to abject poverty? Seems to me both parties (and children) would have to lower their living standards.</p>
<p>^^I don’t know but in my experience someone always gives up something - either the husband or the wife. It’s never “equal” like it was when married…but then it’s not. I’m sure we’ve all witnessed divorces where it was totally contentious and other times it seemed from he outside like it went smoothly. But I honestly don’t know any broken marriage where both sides came out fiscally the same as they were the day before one or the other walked out of the marriage. </p>
<p>I do agree that it would be smart of the OP to set up a checking account at a minimum. Use a family member’s address if the OP is concerned that her husband would explode if he found out. No one knows how he’ll react, but the day the OP moves out the world will change for the OP. </p>
<p>FYI - if OP has joint acct with her H, he can’t remove her without her notarized signature, some banks even require people to close the account and open up a new account in order to remove someone from a joint acct. H could potentially withdraw all money from the joint account once he finds out, but how would setting up an acct in OP’s name now prevent it? Of course, OP could also choose to withdraw money from their joint acct after separation is agreed, but couldn’t she open an acct at that point. I guess I am really trying to see why it would be so important for OP to open a new bank acct now. Maybe I am missing something.</p>
<p>I would get a new credit card in my name while still married, just in case H should close all CC accounts.</p>
<p>" I guess I am really trying to see why it would be so important for OP to open a new bank acct now. Maybe I am missing something."</p>
<p>When my good friend was going through a situation that was almost surely going to result in split up, she was told that opening a bank account would be tough because she would be limited only to those banks that would be willing to do it for a person with damaged credit history (divorce would do it!). That was during the recent financial crisis and in my state, so things might have changed. The friend was also self employed, working from home office. </p>
<p>Are you sure it is not credit card? I have been in banking for years, I am not familiar with people having difficulty in opening bank accounts due to bad credit. I don’t believe credit check is even part of customer on-boarding. Banks update their cash accounts nightly, if not intraday, it would be hard for people to over draw their accts.</p>
<p>Oldfort, I’m sure it was checking - but as I said, it was during those hard times. One could potentially write a lot of bad checks and disappear… Things could be different now. </p>