<p>I think she should open her own checking account so the H won’t have access to it. If all their accounts are joint, he could go and drain accounts of all money the day she tells him she wants a divorce. Imo, she should start squirreling away some money in new account so she, at least, has the money needed to retain attorney. My sister didn’t have any idea before her H told her and so she had to run out next morning and take large sum out and open an account so she would have the funds to retain lawyer. My father told her to do (he is an attorney.) </p>
<p>I think OP needs to cover the bank account issue with her attorney in her state. she may be able to just ask over the phone, saving a consult. If it’s funded with money from a joint account, there are legal allowances. But also certain considerations. She may technically own half or anticipate being allowed half, in a community property state, but there are debt obligation considerations and other implications, as well. But last we heard, OP seemed to be thinking any steps to set herself up would be somehow wrong or that “breach.” </p>
<p>Realistically, how much could OP syphon off their joint account without her H knowing about it? Once he found out then the game maybe over, she would have no choice but to tell her H that she wants a separation(divorce). I don’t know why she would want to show her cards until she is ready. In Emilybee’s sister situation, if she had known about it beforehand, how much could she have taken from their acct before her ex became suspicious? At that point, you might as well just take a big chunk all at once, which is what EB’s sister did. </p>
<p>I think a judge would not look at any party favorably for being underhanded. Lawyers would advise their clients to behave properly in order not be penalized later. </p>
<p>OP here. So many comments, hard to know where to start.</p>
<p>First, my comment about COBRA—I am happy to know it’s an OPTION for me. Getting coverage through the ACA may end up being a better option but it was a welcome surprise to find out that, at least for 3 years, I would be entitled to it.</p>
<p>In response to someone’s question: I pay all the bills and have access to all of our accounts and dh does the investing. I know what it costs to live (rent, should I move out, being the big one; no mortgage on the house). Looking Forward, the small bank account I mentioned is absolutely a marital asset…I mentioned it because people raise the issue of dh raiding our main accounts. He wouldn’t think of this other account so I’d be able to access the funds there during the interim period between separation and any kind of court order.</p>
<p>Now onto some of the posts that were harder to read. It’s interesting that I had recommendation after recommendation to see an attorney, which was excellent advice which I pursued. I thought it might be helpful/interesting to share what I learned and it has surprised me how many have, essentially, told me I received poor advice! The advice I received was specific to my situation—both personally to my financial situation and where I live geographically. All of it resonated and I found to be very helpful.</p>
<p>My comment about creating a separate checking account being a huge breach…first, I would receive mail from the bank which would be problematic but, beyond that, my hope is that dh and I would be able to split amicably (not really the word I mean…maybe pragmatically is closer), even if, initially, there is anger and I’m sure there will be. My dh knows the laws of our state (community property) and knows I’m entitled to half. He also knows of the stories of people pulling all kinds of horrible things and not one (that we’ve heard about in our community) has resulted in anything short of the judge coming down hard on the poorly behaving spouse. I really feel confident that dh will not be one of those that could be added to the list of horrible stories highlighted on this thread, I believe the attorney that there’s a system in place in case that happened (which I don’t believe it will) AND I have a support network that would jump in if, somehow, I was wrong on the first two points.</p>
<p>This thread was started by me because dh hasn’t done anything horrible. I feel lonely and sad and dh has personality traits that make me feel stifled (domineering) and like I don’t have the kind of partner I want. He has anger issues and isn’t particularly pleasant to live with all too often. However, he’s been a great provider, a pretty good dad and, his heart is in the right place. I struggle with the decision because, as I’ve said, I hope to have another 30 years or so and think (not 100% sure) I would be happier single and there’s always the chance I might possibly meet someone else with whom I’d be more compatible.</p>
<p>Still, this is someone I wish well each morning, exchange a text or two with each day, welcome each evening, share dinner with and get into bed with each night. Yes, if we’ve been fighting, it might not look like this for a day or two but this is our ‘normal’. After 30 years we have our accepted way of interacting and how we handle things. Yes, I’ve met with a couple people and paid in cash behind dh’s back…this is the first time in my entire life I’ve done such things and they absolutely cross the line (in terms of how we’ve elected to run our lives) but I did. For me, opening an account, whether I put money into it or not, prior to a discussion in which I tell dh or we agree to separate, is crossing a line that, again, for me, represents too great a breach.</p>
<p>What I haven’t discussed much on this thread is the kids. I have no desire to ‘play dirty’ or do anything seen as unfair (not equal). Even if dh considered such action, he would risk the kids finding out and it altering their views of him. We have a lot of discussions in our family about doing the ‘right’ thing, even if it’s to your disadvantage and about things being ‘fair’ and equitable. I’m sure we all have our family mores and these are some of ours. Even IF dh was completely unpredictable and I’m 100% wrong about his behavior, and he elects to play dirty, I will not for a variety of reasons, the biggest one being the potential impact on my relationship with my kids. Again, I have the luxury of knowing I have a safety net if I end up being so wrong.</p>
<p>Old Fort, thank you for your comments about opening up my own account in 10 minutes down the road. Also, I will check into ‘date of separation’ in my state. While the attorney clearly felt I should not be concerned about immediate access to money, this whole issue around ‘date of separation’ would be good to more fully understand.</p>
<p>Again, for me, I believe one of us will get fed up and say it’s time to separate and, if we’re lucky, the other will agree. One will move elsewhere and we will live separately for some period of time. Paperwork, if and when filed, is unlikely to come as a big surprise.</p>
<p>I will say, enough points have come up (and I read that helpful Forbes article someone kindly linked) that, even if we can agree to mediation (not sure that will fly), I will have my own attorney behind the scenes. </p>
<p>As always, thank you for all the posts. I find them illuminating and certainly understand why the ‘horror stories’ are shared. It’s not that I haven’t heard similar stories myself and some may believe me naïve but I feel confident that there will not be a time when I will have my own to add to the list. No, it won’t be happiness and roses and I’m sure there will be points over which we argue, lots of nasty words, etc. but I am not worried about not having access to money in the short run and, living in a community property state, know I’ll have funds in the long run.</p>
<p>“if she had known about it beforehand, how much could she have taken from their acct before her ex became suspicious”</p>
<p>He would have never known. She paid all the bills. They were also “spenders,” so not unusual for her to go shopping and run up thousands of $$ and when CC bills came pay it all off. He wouldn’t know if a CC bill was $10K, 20K, etc., </p>
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How can a middle income couple ever keep either party living in the manner to which they have become accustomed unless we subject one of the parties to abject poverty? Seems to me both parties (and children) would have to lower their living standards</p>
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<p>They really cant. the best that one can hope is that they both end up with an equivalent standard. When both have similar earnings, that can happen. </p>
<p>The OP has no earnings, though.</p>
<p>^^^
I know. I think that is what concerns many of us. Her H may accept that assets split, but how would he feel about monthly payments of thousands of dollars for support…when getting nothing in return? a person who likes to invest may find that very jarring.</p>
<p>OP - I don’t think you need to worry about things coming in the mail from a bank, credit card, or any other account. You could always opt to do it all online, in fact, they will want you to since it saves them money. You could access your email privately, access your account online, and print out your own statements until you are in a more comfortable living situation. Good luck to you! </p>
<p>I would be careful about the bank mail. Even if you choose online statements, etc., banks often send snail mail with offers, welcome letters. You can’t count on no mail coming to your house unless you give them a different address (relative or PO box).</p>
<p>"she was told that opening a bank account would be tough because she would be limited only to those banks that would be willing to do it for a person with damaged credit history "</p>
<p>That doesn’t make much sense… I have 3 checking accounts that I have open over the years that don’t have my husbands name on them… I know seems silly but one is for paypal only, one for so I can have a free safe deposit box at the bank and a third for when I make money as a substitute teacher. Because he wasn’t physically with me they couldn’t put him on the accounts. He doesn’t care . Also I have a checking account with DS13 that DH isn’t on. Again DH wasn’t there when we opened it up last year.</p>
<p>So I believe OP can open a checking account if she wants too.</p>
<p>OP - I’m really hoping that once your kid goes off to college that your DH will change and you don’t have to get a divorce. </p>
<p>Typically you can’t live the way you were accustomed to unless you have significant money AND are willing to draw down on it or you have an expensive home, paid off and it sells and you each take 1/2 and buy new houses or condos without a mortgage. I’m just really hoping and praying that the OP’s H isn’t blindsided and reacts in a financially retaliatory manner…I’ve seen happen several times. Everything seems to go along fine and then the husbands realize they have to sell their home, come up with a big lump sum payment, lose part of their retirement earnings…it can get not very nice very quickly. Separating one into two isn’t easy emotionally or financially. I always mused that its so very easy to get married and so very, very difficult to dissolve a marriage. Best wishes, I, too, hope you can work things out. </p>
<p>MichiganGeorgia, she absolutely can have a checking account. My H and i each have accounts “on our own”, both checking and credit cards and our cars are titled individually. He pays for his plates and insurance, I pay for my plates and insurance. I think we came into the marriage as independent adults and it was just easier to each deposit into a joint account for the household “stuff” and keep our toys and spending fun money separate even though we always know about what each other has and spends from having to meet with our financial planner every year.</p>
<p>I think OP should make the final judgment as what to do next, we all gave our comments.</p>
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<p>Maybe the time to do this is before one of you is “fed up” and you are fighting about something. </p>
<p>Also… do not separate with the idea that you plan on meeting someone else who is a better match. When I divorced, I knew I would be better off without a spouse for the rest of my life than living with him. If I meet someone else, that is gravy. But I absolutely don’t have that expectation. I have a friend who divorced a few years before I did (mid-40s for her), she really thought she would just find someone else and settle down again. This has not happened (she had one relationship with a man she knew from long ago in med school, cross country relationship, but it did not end well). While I think she would not go back to her marriage, she has struggled more with not meeting someone else. Just putting it out there that you can’t go into this expecting that will happen. Also, if you are anything like me, you would be much pickier about marriage again. My personal first-on-the-list criteria is a NICE guy if I ever go down the marriage path again.</p>
<p>OP, okay.</p>
<p>I think, just as with real-life friends, we were looking for that point when you seemed to be as aware as we think you need to be. I now think you are. At least for where you need to be now. I think some of the stories shared were just to make sure they got put on the table, so to say, got acknowledged.</p>
<p>But as with real-life friends, there is a point when we need to say, “okay,” and let you mull this over. I wish you the best. Yes, you have a chance to possibly re-write, change your path, and move forward. Best wishes. Hug.</p>
<p>I have been thinking about this conversation today and feel like it has moved away from the initial post of how to decide when to leave, to what to do when the decision to leave has been made. Lots of good information on preparing for divorce but I am still pondering how one decides to make a big change in life.</p>
<p>I feel like waiting for a big argument to occur to say I want a divorce is passive aggressive behavior. If one is unhappy, then own it, and be able to say in a calm moment “this relationship isn’t working for me anymore and I want to separate”.</p>
<p>I found the book Simple Changes by Robert Wicks very helpful in identifying my own passive aggressive tendencies and avoidance of ‘upsetting the status quo’. I didn’t speak up and voice opinions because of the snarky back stabbing comments that might occur but then get mad that my opinions were never considered. Well it was my own fault for not putting my opinions out there.</p>
<p>I learned to say in my head ‘own it’ and then speak up when a difficult conversation required my input and learned to say ‘I don’t deserve to be spoken to like that’ when I got an inappropriate response.</p>
<p>So my advice to the OP is to spend time examining her part in the relationship and figure out how she can change her reactions to him since she can’t change him. In the book I mentioned the author says "if you fall off the horse, you get back on, if you fall off again you get back on again etc but it would really help to take some riding lessons.</p>
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feel like it has moved away from the initial post of how to decide when to leave, to what to do when the decision to leave has been made.
but I am still pondering how one decides to make a big change in life.</p>
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<p>I was thinking the same thing. The title of the thread suggests that a decision still has to be made, yet the thread and some/most of the OP’s posts suggest that a decision was already made. </p>
<p>Maybe the OP really just wanted support for a decision already made? </p>
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<p>Has the possibility of divorce been discussed between the two of you? Or, instead have there just been typical spouse-listings of faults that each doesn’t like?</p>
<p>I still think that a long-term spouse owes it to the other to say something like, “I am seriously considering divorce because of X, Y, Z. I can’t stay in this marriage as long as A, B, C are going on. I feel lonely when _____ and I dont want to feel that way. If those things will continue to be a part of our marriage, then I will move to end it. If you are seriously willing to have a marriage where those things do not occur and we seek counseling to help make that happen, then I will give the marriage X months for those changes to occur. We cant just talk the talk, we must walk the walk. If you arent interested in these changes, then I will respect the fact that you must want the marriage to end as well.” or something like that. </p>
<p>of course, if there is fear of physical abuse (which the OP says there isnt), then a heads up isnt warranted.</p>
<p>To me, a long time spouse deserves at least as much as a long time employee. If you see that their behavior could lead to a firing, then it seems decent to say so, with details, and give them X months to clean up their act. </p>
<p>Ask yourself this:</p>
<p>what 5 faults is your H allowed to have that you would tolerate and not divorce him over?</p>
<p>what faults are deal-breakers for you?</p>
<p>As to mail: it is worthwhile to open up a PO Box, in advance. The problem is that if one party moves out, there is no guarantee that important mail that is delivered to the formerly shared home will be forwarded in any way that is timely – and putting in a change notice at the post office is iffy. (I still get mail addressed to my former husband at my house, almost 20 years post-split – mostly junk mail-- but that’s part of the problem) Depending on circumstances of the separation, it could take several weeks or even months before the departing spouse is settled into a new apartment or home – in the meantime that person might be living temporarily in a hotel, or staying with friend, or might take a short-term sublet while still hunting for a better place to stay. It will be next to impossible for a woman with no income to rent an apartment in any case – typically you need to be ready to pay first and last month’s rent plus a security deposit, and pass a credit check – and of course the prospective landlord wants to see an income source on the apartment app – so if the OP moves out, unless she has a friends who are real estate agents or apartment owners who can help her out, it may be a while until she can get situated. (It may be enough for her to know that she’s protected for the long-term even if there are short-term cash flow issues, but that won’t convince the landlord.)</p>
<p>Totally agree with post 316, own your feelings and calmly discuss when not in the heated moment.</p>
<p>You can rent an apartment easily if you are willing to pay 6+ months of rent up front. </p>