<p>Thank you Oldfort for sharing your perspective.</p>
<p><<<
The SET principle is very wise. Thank you!</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>My unprofession observation has been this…</p>
<p>difficult, irrational people are used to having people dismiss their complaints, because (frankly) their complaints/whines are often silly, misplaced, annoying, selfish, etc. Having their complaints chronically ignored, dismissed, seems to add to their pain/frustrations/anxiety/what-have-you…so they behave even worse…tantrums, raging, and so forth. </p>
<p>SET allows them to hear some supportive/empathetic words that they long to hear (but rarely ever hear because these folks are annoying irrational whiners), but then they are also told the truth (which people in the past are generally ONLY telling them).</p>
<p>for example, in the case of my H whining that I didnt schedule gym-time at WDW.</p>
<p>I hope we can fit some time in for your workout (support) because I know that is important to you and you enjoy it (empathy). I did show you the schedule several times in advance and asked for your input, but did not receive any (truth).</p>
<p>Usually, we all would just say the truth part, right? lol SET is kind of a hug then a pat on the back, followed-up with a soft-slap in the face of reality check method.</p>
<p>(I suspect that this would also work with those who have executive function issues)</p>
<p>My experience is somewhat similar to oldfort’s in that when my ex misbehaves now, I feel no ownership and merely watch with interest. I still experience some of it, as we still have kids together and deal with things like paying tuition, etc. The kids don’t communicate much with him, so he calls me about once a month to get an update on their lives, which I happily give him. But when he tells a story about falling out with his sister (easily 50% his fault) or tells me he just bought a 5 bedroom 3 story house for his retirement home, I can now just “smile and nod”. </p>
<p>And your stories of vacations above – my kids and I had come to dread vacations with him. He was a ‘drive all night to get there and then be an a<strong>h</strong>* for 2 days because he was exhausted’ vacationer. He also hated to participate in the planning, then just complained about the itinerary. We hated it. One of the great reliefs of divorcing him is that I will never have to go on vacation with him again. The kids had to endure a few more, but they will no longer even entertain the idea now that they are old enough to decide for themselves.</p>
<p>CountingDown, I hope that your medical issue was resolved! What an awful weekend you’ve had!</p>
<p>One trait that I’ve found almost universal in men is the urge to “fix” things. Many, many times over the I’ve gone to my husband with problems, wanting some sympathy and comfort. Instead, he always goes into high gear, wanting to do something himself if possible, telling me what I should do if it’s something he can’t do himself. Women friends understand that what is wanted, most of all, is a sympathetic ear, and they don’t feel a burning need to solve the problem immediately.</p>
<p>If your husband has this very common mindset, CD, then I imagine the unexpected serious problem that he was absolutely powerless to “fix” would have been excruciating for him. I’m sure that all you wanted was someone to hold your hand while the doctors and nurses took care of things.</p>
<p>Thank you so much for all the helpful posts! </p>
<p>Counting Down, I’m so sorry you’ve had the week-end you’ve had and hope you are feeling well. You didn’t go off topic at all and I’m sorry that was the way in which your dh chooses/resorts to showing his fear about the possibility of losing you (which also shows how much he loves you, regardless of how poorly he executes it).</p>
<p>Busy Parent, I will order the book – thank you for the recommendation. </p>
<p>Mom2collegekids, thank you for your wise words. I love the SET principle and I was actually trained in something similar for a job I had many years ago. I’m sure I lapse more often than I should after all these years but what a great reminder.</p>
<p>It’s easy to think things are cut and dry but they’re not which is the reason I started this thread. In theory, I agree with mom2collegekids 100%:</p>
<p>“I still think that a long-term spouse owes it to the other to say something like, “I am seriously considering divorce because of X, Y, Z. I can’t stay in this marriage as long as A, B, C are going on. I feel lonely when _____ and I dont want to feel that way. If those things will continue to be a part of our marriage, then I will move to end it. If you are seriously willing to have a marriage where those things do not occur and we seek counseling to help make that happen, then I will give the marriage X months for those changes to occur. We cant just talk the talk, we must walk the walk. If you arent interested in these changes, then I will respect the fact that you must want the marriage to end as well.” or something like that”</p>
<p>After 30 years, and with such different communication styles, I may be able to get here but it’s so much less straight forward. I have spent years voicing my concerns and, many years ago, shared that I just didn’t think I could stay if x, y and z didn’t change. Dh told me not to bring it up if I wasn’t ready to make the move. At that point, I had several young kids and was unwilling to do so. For the next however many years, I went through periods of trying to communicate and just backing off…depending on where I was emotionally. (I don’t advocate the passive mode to others but, sometimes, after too many times of feeling horrible after our ‘discussions’, it was just easier.)</p>
<p>Once my kids got older, and with the youngest within a couple years of college, I sought counseling. I followed her advice and tried some alternate tactics as I worked to get my inner power back. I interacted with dh differently when conflicts came up and dh hated it. Separating has come up several times (a couple by him) and, now, when I initiate any kind of conversation in which he can interpret that I’m criticizing him (regardless of whether I use the SET-type communication model or not) , he says, “Once again, it’s all my fault!” (I have taken responsibility for many things during all of our discussions over the years.) Very tough to take the conversation to the next level after that. Or, he decides to exit – leaves the house for a bit and, twice, has said he would be back the next day (but has never actually done that). The bottom line is, after 30 years of ‘conversations’, I would say we’ve never once had a truly satisfying one in which I walked away feeling better/more lovingly towards him. He’s defensive and competitive and his communication style is completely different from mine.</p>
<p>Once my nest was full for the summer, knowing that I might be willing to leave as early as the end of the summer, I decided that I would turn the other cheek and make my very best effort to not confront anything. After 30 years of generally feeling worse after bringing up an issue than better, and knowing that my efforts through counseling backfired, it just seemed the best way to have a nice time with my family (as I expect this is the last time all of us will live together – I mean with all the kids in the house).</p>
<p>So, with my cheek turned, dh has mellowed out and, while it’s tough on many levels, it’s been easier for me. So, maybe, if we have very few altercations this summer, I could figure out a way to follow Mom2collegekids advice and have a clear conversation with dh about what would need to change for me to stay/be happy (using the SET principles).</p>
<p>Thank you to all who have stayed engaged in this thread. As I only have one friend with whom I’ve shared any of this with, I find it so helpful. </p>
<p>Hardtoknow, it sounds like you have been working very hard for a very long time to make your marriage work. Best to you as you move forward. We’ve got your back.</p>
<p>No one will be able to say you didn’t give it a good try, that is for sure.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>Sounds like he knew that you werent serious because of the little ones. Frankly, I think sometimes SAHM’s are at a serious disadvantage in this regard. Too many husbands know that many SAHMs will put up with more BS because leaving when kids are little is a huge upheaval. </p>
<br>
<br>
<p>I think this is a common retort. I wonder how he’d respond if you said, "You are right, that I think that way. If I dont like something you are doing, I think you are doing something wrong/annoying…just like when you complain that you dont like something I do (give an example), you think I am wrong/annoying. Now, if we think that the other’s expectations/complaints are unreasonable, then we should speak up rather than just say, “Once again, it is my fault.” </p>
<p>I am curious, though, once he learns that you are serious about filing for divorce, if he will suddenly be willing to go to a therapist. If you do go, go to a male…otherwise he may accuse the female of being part of a “womens union” ( my therapist sister has been told this)</p>
<p>“One thing I noticed is that my husband who is usually nice and pleasant but as he ages there are times that he is a little bit, shall I say, unlike himself. I now have to be the reasonable person which is very rare before. What happens to my calm and carry-on husband?”</p>
<p>DrGoogle - Perhaps he is going through a male sort of menopause? </p>
<p>Maybe, it’s possible, male or female goes through some type of menopause. He was a little panicky about 2 pedestrians that I’ve already saw coming. </p>
<p>@hardtoknow: Thanks for this post and all the great advice it has generated - just know that others are benefitting from all that has been shared here too. Though I am not in the exact same position as you, let’s just say I’ve had a serious reevaluation of my marriage and a really bad case of pending empty nest syndrome about 9 months ago. I feared great loneliness and emptiness (still do but at least I mindful of it now…) after the harsh realization that my youngest is headed out of the house to college this coming Fall. I also feared the kids had become the glue between my H and I over the 20 years. I finally tackled the big subject with my H (not at all easy since we are not the most communicative couple) and said that we need to go to counseling to figure out where we’re headed and whether we need to stay together or not. I figured that if he refused, then I would be proceeding to separation and likely divorce (You have my support there if a partner refuses to make things better in a relationship!) - but he did agree to attend counseling. Anyway one strong, and repeated, piece if advice our marriage counselor shared with us is not to make any substantial decisions around the time of an empty nest - she said give it at least 6 months to a year to allow that new relation between us to find its new place in a household. Talk’s cheap; actions speak louder than words; time will tell - I’m not quite sitting on the fence as to separation or divorce yet but let’s just say I’m still undecided. I have decided to give it at least that 6 months to a year after 20 years of marriage. Since you asked the question in the OP, I’d thought I’d at least give you my perspective. No two situations are alike and understand your situation is different from mine. </p>
<p>BTW, thanks to all for the great financial advice here. Since I live in a community property state, I actually stand to lose in a divorce since I have stronger financial assets than H, so it been a good heads up that I need to do my homework and research and have that in my back pocket. Agree with whomever said once you broach the subject of separation with your spouse, it cannot be unsaid. Good word of caution.</p>
<p>Swimdogmom, Years ago I read an article about stress and divorce. The authors said not to make any decision for one to two years after a major life event, which on their list included birth of a child, leaving school, becoming employed or unemployed, moving long distance, losing a family member, major illness or injury, children leaving home, retirement, etc.<br>
I think your counselor give you good advice. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>You have your answer right there. If you want your H to lay off, then the “yes dear, whatever you say” approach seem to work. It’s possible that the dynamic will change and it won’t work after the kids all leave for college in the fall – but you could find out easily simply by continuing that path through the fall – for example, you could simply decide that you will wait until January of 2015 to make a decision - that also is in line with the advice from swimdogmom’s counselor about giving time to adjust to a new relationship when dealing with a newly empty next.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I think you are asking the wrong question: the question is what changes you need to make for yourself in order to be happy. Your husband is not responsible for your happiness; you are. You can’t change him or demand that he change; you can change yourself. </p>
<p>This isn’t a matter of right and wrong – just of your own decisions as to what changes you want to make for yourself and what you don’t. Maybe you don’t want to be the person who always turns the other cheek – and that is fine – but that is the question for you to answer. Make the assumption that he won’t change: but you will. Then make the changes you want for yourself.</p>
<p>I am not talking about changes you make in an effort to influence or manipulate your husband’s behavior. I am talking about changes you make with the goal of making your life happier. So perhaps the changes are in socializing more frequently on your own with your own friends, or getting involved in volunteer work, or finding a job, or taking up a new hobby, or finding some other activities to do on your own during the day. Maybe you can go to a gym or a yoga studio, as a way of improving your own health and at the same time getting some relief from stress and tensions at home. </p>
<p>There is a third way: rather than a divorce, you can simply change the expectations you have of your relationship with your husband. You can focus on your own needs more during the day, get involved with other activities, and accept the idea that your husband is not your best friend. There are plenty of married couples that stay together with an emotionally distant relationship, because the practical and financial benefits of being married and occupying outweigh whatever emotional benefits they would get from going their separate ways. </p>
<p>I’m not saying that the answer is simply to suck it up and give him his way. But from your posts it doesn’t sound like you really want a divorce – it sounds like you want to stay married but you also want your husband’s behavior to change. And that’s not going to happen - why benefit does he get from changing? So I am saying that have the power to change your lifestyle and the way you relate to your husband by divorcing, but you can also have the power to do the same within the marriage. </p>
<p>It may be that if you make major changes yourself, that will have the impact of driving you husband away – that is certainly what happened to me, and I was glad that it did. I simply made the decision to stop engaging or responding to efforts to fight, and eventually when nothing he said or did could get the desired response from me, he left. And I was glad that he did. But the point was that there was not a big final blow up. I took the steps I needed to change myself, first. </p>
<p>If you are going to divorce, then you will need to take all of those steps anyway: find other friends and activities and interests to fill your life. So if there is any step that you are not willing or take – then ask yourself why. See a counselor for yourself again if you need to. </p>
<p>I am seeing a counselor and this whole subject is an ongoing area of discussion. DH refuses to get counseling, either with me or solo. One of my kids is particularly affected by all of this and it’s really messed with his life.</p>
<p>I do like the SET modality – but as OP said, DH says, “so it’s my fault…”</p>
<p>DH had a horrendous childhood – physical and emotional abuse, having to be in control of family finances and dealing with Child Protective Services in his early teens. For years I was amazed that he survived and was as functional as he is. When I became ill, that changed. When bad things happen, he goes into control mode by reflex, and it sets off all his warning bells & whistles. This includes getting upset over silly little things. He manages to stay in denial about my health issues because I am usually doing too much in an effort to maintain the peace. If I don’t get stuff done because it’s a bad day or I have to ration my energy, he explodes, too. </p>
<p>Ironically, he is very successful in his job, where he finds problems and issues in his regulatory area and sets out to build infrastructure and tests that protect those who are at risk. (We call it being “professionally paranoid.”</p>
<p>My health precludes me from working at this point, so the financial issues of leaving loom very large. My medical bills are very large (on the order of ongoing expenses of $150k+/year) and I have a good group of docs here for my various issues. Leaving feels like a life-or-death decision. I don’t want to leave, but increasingly feel it’s not healthy for me to stay.</p>
<p>Thanks for the good wishes. We think I have internal bleeding going on and it has caused me to be severely anemic. Got three units of blood over the weekend and my hemoglobin is still way below where it should be. Add to that the heart issues, blood thinners, chemo that also causes anemia, and it is a pretty delicate thing. I am luckier than many, but sometimes it still just sucks.</p>
<p>@countingdown, hope you are feeling better soon. 
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>It is exhausting to live with someone who isn’t pulling the same direction in the harness that you are. No matter how you react to them, sometimes it is too much to keep feeling like you are the only one trying to move things in a positive direction for yourself and the rest of your family.</p>
<p>I agree that for the most part happiness is found from within, that another person cannot be responsible for making you happy. HOWEVER, there are people on this planet who can make it difficult to impossible to find one’s inner happiness. There is no shame in leaving a toxic relationship with someone who absolutely refuses to make an effort to contribute to a healthy partnership and who doesn’t give a flip about the other’s feelings.</p>
<p>Here is a good book
<a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Stop-Walking-Eggshells-Borderline-Personality/dp/1572246901”>http://www.amazon.com/Stop-Walking-Eggshells-Borderline-Personality/dp/1572246901</a></p>
<p>while the book is directed at those living with someone with BPD, it really is helpful for anyone having to deal with someone who is difficult. Everyone walked on eggshells around my FIL, this book may have helped. I believe he had obsessive compulsive disorder, anxiety ate exactly the same thing everyday, had to have the same routine/no changes, had to have his own way, refused to hear anyone else’s opinion (including his own wife’s), and assumed that whatever you said, you were insulting him.</p>
<p>^^^^^^I have to wonder how a person (your MIL for example) can be persuaded to marry a person like that!</p>
<p>^^
excellent question. I have been told by a few professionals (including my sis) that some of these demanding, unreasonable, irrational behaviors dont show until married/living together. These same folks often do not behave like this with outsiders (at least not to the same outrageous extent) because the friction and emotions that exists when co-habitating doesnt exist. In truth, often outsiders think the person is nice and charming! lol</p>
<p>What I have been told is that these behaviors really come out when the person is stressed/anxious, and often during happy-dating, those emotions dont surface. When these folks face something that upsets them, makes them anxious, then their true colors start showing. Everyone is a bit more emotional when upset/anxious, but it is the level and how long they are emotional that is telling. If they react to many minor things as if they are major things, then that is a biggie. Or if they get mad and stay mad for an unusual length of time over something that shouldnt last that long.</p>
<p>I have a SIL who is this way to her spouse. She isnt that way with most people. She has unreasonable expectations, jealousies, etc, that just dont exist with others. Once they married, she clamped down on all of his outside hobbies (and he doesnt have many at all…just occasional bike rides with a male friend or helping at church). She demands their home be remodeled constantly with all the latest greatest stuff. And as soon as something new comes on the market, she demands a new remodel. None of this was apparent while dating. </p>
<p>I dont know how long my MIL dated FIL before marrying. Back then, often people didnt wait long. And, back then, often you didnt see your SO as often. My own parents only saw each other once a week (Sat night) when they were dating because they lived/worked about 50 miles apart and travel wasnt as easy back then (fewer freeways, etc). Yet, my own parents got engaged 5 months after their first date, and married 6 months later. They would have married sooner but mom wanted to be a June Bride…and it was easier for those who had to travel with school-aged kids.</p>
<p>mom2collegekids, thank you for the book recommendation. I bought it for my friend who is stuck in a marriage to a posessive, hard to please guy. She doesn’t want to do anything for the sake of her kids, but dealing with her H eroded her emotionally and psychologically. What you say about your FIL is applicable in this case. The guy is charming and behaves normally around others, but inside their house he is just like your FIL and on top of that, he treats her like his property: she has to cater to his minute demands, he has to know where, when, and with whom she is every minute of her day, calls and texts her at work and even monitors her computer and phone! I could not live in this kind of madness, but she is sticking with it for the kids’ sake. She tries not to argue with him and is very submissive in front of the kids. Even when they are along, she tries to please him, but it is so difficult for her to keep doing this. I’m learning a lot from this thread and will send her over to CC to read it. </p>