how do you make the big decision to leave a spouse?

Parent Cafe
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<p>Without reading all of the thread, a telling sign is when H treats W differently in front of other people. This happened between exBIL and my sis. Sis is now happily remarried, but ex thought he owned her until sis was engaged to H2.</p>

<p>I agree about not doing anything rash for quite a time after a life transition like empty nest.</p>

<p>Maybe there are some things one can do to increase self esteem outside of marriage.</p>

<p>Also there are ways to improve coping skills and improve self so less affected by comments/actions of H. Prayer helps too, sharing with other, having others pray for you. Maybe you have discussed with minister; try to find some emotional support.</p>

<p>My H’s behavior improved with empty nest. I think in part it is that the stresses of kids’ activities and worry are off of H - he has more time to do the things he likes to do, and also is now talking to me (instead of using kids as W substitute for communication, etc).</p>

<p>This past week on one of Oprah’s shows was her interview with Sarah Ban Breathnach (Simple Abundance book made her wealthy; later book Peace and Plenty). Sarah married for a 3rd time after her book success, and between her own spending (having 7 assistants and spending) and then letting this new H totally mooch off of her and take over her investments - guy literally spent her down - she knew him from her 20’s in England. Sarah’s daughter visited and ‘helped’ her save herself. Maybe these two books can give you some insight. Sarah moved in with her sister with a suitcase, broke, and filing divorce; now she lives next door to her sister and has gotten back on her feet with her additional writing. Sarah allowed what happened to her - she didn’t ask for advice with her new wealth, and ignored signs of trouble (family did not like this guy; she married him anyway and then was isolated).</p>

<p>Oprah even spoke a little about a bad relationship she was in (in her 20’s) - guy never crossed the line (never hit her) but I guess Oprah realized this was a failed relationship and got out.</p>

<p>Besides mid-life crisis, maybe H is exhibiting behavior he saw modeled by his own family; maybe insecurities. If H has anger issues, he needs to address rather than use W as scape-goat.</p>

<p>My advice would be take baby steps. Journaling? Allow H to be right about little things. Focus on the important things being positive.</p>

<p>My FIL has exhibited some really bad, berating behaviors. MIL couldn’t even pass something to him on the table the ‘right’ way - FIL is physically dependent on MIL - he could not live on his own. MIL and I recognize it is his unhappiness (physical limitations and other) and wanting more ‘control’, elevating himself by putting her down. She handles differently than I would, but another generation.</p>

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<p>Sometimes, when a person hears, “this is what I need to be happy,” or “this is how you need to change,” - well, sometimes you are telling them what’s wrong with them, what they need to do differently. In an ideal world, the other adult says, “Oh, okay!” It’s not an ideal world and the challenge of marriage is you own their sensitivities, too. I don’t mean an impossible spouse, more those who have their oh, maybe call it vulnerabilities. They don’t always project well. </p>

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<p>Substitute biking with a male friend or helping at church for playing guitar/participating in a hobby-oriented/church band and you have one chronic topic theme on a guitar forum where the demographics average is mostly male and 50-60 years of age. </p>

<p>Topics range from having to hide guitars from spouse to having spouse berate them for even spending 5-10 minutes playing during their leisure time. </p>

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<p>I agree with not making huge changes just before or after major life events. I think, in OP’s position, I’d make sure my finances were in order. If I didn’t have a job, I’d get one. Then I’d take steps to change my behavior and reactions so they reflect who I am and how I want to live. My husband would be welcome to stay if he could get on board and not expect me to subjugate my goals and opinions to his, but if he couldn’t pattern the behavior I expect my son to exhibit toward his wife, or the traits I want my daughter to expect in a husband, that would be an indication to me that perhaps I’d be better off without him.</p>

<p>I think many of these behaviors are learned, and if they’re not addressed early in a marriage it creates entrenched habits that are hard to change. But you’re only responsible for your own behavior, not your spouse’s. How do you know when it’s time to go? When you’re better without your spouse than you can be with him. If you have to hide who you are, what you like, and how you feel, that’s an indication that you may be better off on your own (unless you can change the power dynamic). Marriage is a partership, not a subjugation of self, and it should make you a stronger, better person. If it doesn’t, identify what changes you can make in your behavior so you’re the person you want to be and make them. You have no control over whether or not your spouse adapts and stays or decides not to adapt and leaves, just over your behavior and the example you set for your children.</p>

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<p>I’m long time married and have been reading this thread with interest. What has often come to my mind is if you would want this for your own child. </p>

<p>My sympathies to you OP as you struggle to make this very difficult decision. I have a feeling there will come a time when you just know you’ve had enough.</p>

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<p>Op glad you went to see a professional. IMHO no one was saying you got bad advice. Jurisdictions differ. But that said, as a lawyer I will share a common anecdote…you meet a client and tell him beware of this potential problem ( poop sandwich))…he will either say 1. That’s not really a problem (p.s.) because xyz (I’m right/he’s not like that, whatever)or 2. (After) OMG !!! why didn’t you tell me about the poop sandwich!!!. Or both.</p>

<p>Sometimes clients hear what they want to hear or do not comprehend the impact of what we say. Then, sadly, there are some lawyers who oversell the results they can get or how fast. Often to wives…saying “don’t worry your ex will have to pay for x, y and me.”</p>

<p>My advice is to treat the finances and alimony talk as aspirational not a sure thing. That way the floor will not fall out if it doesn’t happen quickly. </p>

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<p>This is one of the most informative threads posted on CC. </p>

<p>Years ago I posted about moving across country to marry hs b/f, then feeling controlled, ignored after surgery, feeling that was last straw, and still taking my time to actually leave (He later verbally abused my son, and I told my son, that it what I’ve been dealing with for years, so now when I tell you why I am leaving him, you will understand".) This was the best decision I ever made. I’m just sorry it took me so long to recognize all the red flags. Had I had children with this man, it would have made the decision to leave all that much harder. </p>

<p>The OP still has positive things to say about her mate. By the time I left, I had none. Unfortunately, the OP will still be dealing with her man around family events. she is in a much harder position.</p>

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<p>On the wedding threads, we always try to remember that the couple should be putting more thoughts into planning the marriage than planning the wedding. It probably works that way with this thread, too. One question is how to decide and take the first steps, but the the big question is how to live afterwards.</p>

<p>I thought about this yesterday while visiting with MIL/FIL. More on that sometime on the caring for parents thread. They have been married 60+ years, and still can’t communicate effectively with each other. They can’t even talk about mildly difficult subjects without getting cross and one of them shutting down, much less resolve complex issues. They never could, and I have to accept that they never will and quit expecting otherwise. </p>

<p>So one thing to think about is how you will live your life every day as a divorced person, and how you will maintain relationships with the kids and the ex. Another is how you will live your life every day if you stay together and one has to become a full-time caregiver for the other, or make decisions about assisted living, or in-home caregivers, or selling the family home and moving to an apartment or retirement community. Those are big decisions to make together, and more difficult if you can’t talk them over.</p>

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<p>Hi hardtoknow.</p>

<p>How is it going now that it’s fall?</p>

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<p>Thanks for asking, momofflour. It was a pretty tough summer but the recommendation to read Harriet Lerner’s Dance of Anger may have been a life changer. It really resonated with me and led me to read a couple of her other books–The Dance of Connection is excellent and Marriage Rules was helpful too but not quite as much so. (The first two were written quite awhile ago so you have to be prepared to skip over some of the dated references but I found that easy to do.)</p>

<p>I also read Too good to leave, Too bad to stay at the recommendation of someone here. Interesting read and the result was that I should definitely leave, according to the book. The Lerner books are more about how to better interact to meet your needs and, since I haven’t made the decision yet, it helped me see some of my own part in our challenges and gave me some new things to try to see if change is possible.</p>

<p>Right after drop off of our youngest (literally: we were driving to the airport to fly back home), dh and I had another bad incident and I felt, for the first time, that, if I needed to make the decision to go, I could actually go through with it. Leaving was just about all that was on my mind then and dh must have sensed it (or, he was in the same place and decided it wasn’t what he wanted) and reached out with a heartfelt apology and expressed his desire for us to make it through all the bad to get to some good (my paraphrasing is not adequately reflecting his kind words/effort).</p>

<p>I so appreciated it and things have been better since getting home. I don’t delude myself that things are really changed but, for now, I live in a more peaceful home. I do feel lonely ( have friends so I don’t mean overall but, rather, when alone with dh) and still encounter some frustration and embarrassment as I’ve described previously but I’m noticing that it’s less than before. Whether the mellowing out of dh is temporary or permanent I don’t know but I’m appreciating it as I get accustomed to this next phase of life with the kids all gone. I’m still not really sure of the answer to my original question (how do you make the big decision…) but, for now – at least for today – I’m staying put. Stay tuned as, sadly, that could change in a day!</p>

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<p>Thanks for the update. Marriage and divorce are definitely a process. And not necessarily linear. </p>

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<p>You aren’t the only one who is having a tough time.
I recently read that Neil & Pegi Young are getting divorced. ( They’ve been married for 37 years, but he has been " dating" Daryl Hannah apparently)
I’ve been married for 33 but H also had several incidents this past weekend that make me want to take him to the dr, ( and seriously consider separation) , there is a fine line between being a supportive advocate, and enabling or taking over. .
It’s tough, & it’s not black and white.</p>

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<p>@hardtoknow‌
Thank you for the update. I hope things work out for y’all. </p>

<p>{{{ hugs }}}</p>

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<p>IMHO, if either spouse wants to cheat, that is, needs that physical part of a relationship from someone else, then divorce. I don’t think you need to divorce right away due to never really feeling happy. But you need to focus on making yourself happy, and <em>then</em> decide if the next step is to divorce, because your spouse impedes your happiness.</p>

<p>If not, one can just stop hanging around with your spouse. Find other activities outside the house. See if spending less time with him helps - maybe one night per week, maybe if you have the dough - a weekend by yourself doing something you always wanted to do but he would nix.</p>

<p>If he does get angry with you starting other activities, that’s a bad sign of course.</p>

<p>However - I would say if you could stick it out until the kids are out of college, working out things on your own (note that you can tell him why you are spending time away, that you are unhappy. Does he care about that or not? Does he want you to stay home and be unhappy?) might be worth it.</p>

<p>I have a friend who has three children, ages 5 - 13. She will be waiting at least 12 years, maybe 16 to get divorced. But she has had it in her mind for at least 5 years, and to be honest, was fooling herself before that. What is important to her is the idea of a stable family for her kids, but also she does not want to mess around or deal with possible new relationships. She lives for her kids. </p>

<p>It is all a cost-benefit analysis, unless there is physical abuse or serious emotional abuse (beyond name-calling). Some people need to get away, and either divorce or set new ground rules for their life after the kids have moved on to college.</p>

<p>If I were in the situation described, I would do my best to go on a vacation by myself and think. If I didn’t have the money to do it, I’d go to a park or the zoo by myself, and try to think. As you indicated, communication with your spouse is the key, and to be honest, everyone else on this planet is like a kid to us, young or old, so we have to choose what we say and how we act to get the result we want. That act may be to leave. Or what we say could be changed based on the audience.</p>

<p>Good luck, maybe he is ready for a change too, and maybe you can at least try changing together.</p>

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<p>People and circumstances really can change in a marriage if one or both of the partners want to change and are willing to do the painful work needed. It is entirely possible that your husband had a visit from the ghost of no family future and didn’t like what he saw. Taking a child to college and simultaneously becoming aware that your spouse really could leave you could rock anyone’s world.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the update, OP, and good luck. </p>

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<p>It has been 4+ months for me. It was pretty rough the first three months, waking up by myself, eating by myself and going out by myself. It was a big change after being with someone for 30+ years. There were times when I thought about going back and there were times when I was very angry at my ex. I think couples should do everything possible before deciding to part. In my case, after working with my therapist this summer, I feel it was the right decision for me. My ex was speaking/treating me in very unkind way in so long, I didn’t even notice it until I was away from him for few months. More recently when we were having a discussion, he started on me again, and I had to tell him to stop because I no longer need to put up with it any more. Next time he interacted with me he was a lot nicer. I didn’t realize how alone I felt while I was married.</p>

<p>I am beginning to enjoy my own time now. I am currently traveling with D2 in Europe and having a very relaxed time. I am less tense in having to worry if ex is having a good time. I am taking a road trip with my mom when I return. I am seeing my friends more now. I eat what I want and when I want. I maybe moving on to a new job soon too. So, a lot of changes in my life.</p>

<p>OP- if you are not working with a therapist now, I would encourage you to do so. It will help you to see some clarity about yourself.<br>
If you should decide to see a marriage counselor, I would advise you (and others) to keep in mind not to say anything too hurtful in front of your spouse because you are trying to be honest. Our counselor encouraged us too much to tell the other person what was bothering us, some of those things were very hurtful and we couldn’t take it back. I think it would have been more helpful if we could have spent more time on what we liked about each other.</p>

<p>It is good you are re-thinking about your decision. It is not easy and sometimes there is no right solution. I wish you best of luck.</p>

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<p>Very helpful post, oldfort. So glad you’re finding enjoyment now. Happy travels!</p>

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<p>if you split up be sure to have a support network set up like friends and activities. I believe women are better at this than men.</p>

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<p>oldfort, I’m very happy to see your post with its forward-looking, upbeat tone. Glad that you are doing much better. </p>

<p>Re: emotional support. IMO, some people are too quick to seek emotional “support” in a new romantic partner who often may not be the right person to turn to for such support, and when the novelty of the affair wears off, they think, “well, that relationship was a bust, need to find a new one!” Women (and men) who nurture their emotional support network and do not dive head first into romantic partnerships to get away from reality do better in the long run. </p>