<p>“My former fiancé”…was still able to intimidate my first attorney"</p>
<p>How did that happen if you never got married in the first place?</p>
<p>ah Golden, I’f have to send you a private nessage about how a judge could intimidate a lawyer,;////////// I did swithch lawyers to het the case resolved/ We owned property together.</p>
<p>Goldenpooch and intparent:
You are fortunate not to be married to this type of personality. Husbands like the OP’s are not rational, and personality disorders are usually not changeable. If this was something like a careless guy being asked to put his socks in the hamper, that is fixable. Narcissistic and passive aggressive behavior, no. Men like this do not WANT divorces. They need to argue and criticize someone else in order to feel important and better about themselves. They are also not really capable of seeing their own behavior as wrong, which is why recording one of his rants will most likely backfire. They KNOW they are right, not just THINK they are right, even when they are wrong.</p>
<p>OP’s choice is pretty much to continue living with this man as is or leaving. If she raises the issue of leaving before actually doing it, and for some reason then decides to stay, that will be used against her for the rest of the marriage.</p>
<p>Once you do the whole lawyer thing, it is over. You are as bad or worse than he is if you are going behind his back and he has no idea that his marriage is ending. It is rather like getting a pre-nup. That starts the end before the beginning. </p>
<p>This is why so many marriages in in divorce. So many women dog-pile on a guy they have never met based upon the one-sided view of someone who thinks she is unhappy. None of us have any idea and giving terminal advice such as lawyering up is tantamount to forum malpractice. You don’t know the situation, stop painting it with your own brush and condemning a guy for something of which he may not be guilty.</p>
<p>Maybe he is just burned out from being the sole source of income and raising bratty kids who run to mommy every time they get punished and she takes their side. You see, it all depends upon who is telling the story.</p>
<p>Be a grown up. Talk to him about what is bothering you. Find some time for the two of you as a couple rather than as parents. It is your own fault if you are unhappy for years and do to work with the other person to improve (not him, YOU). You cannot improve him, but if you improved you, you may see a better him emerge. Maybe he is just unsatisfied with some aspect of your personal life.</p>
<p>To the OP: In spite of the title of this thread – “How do you make the decision?” – I think you have already made the decision. Now it’s just about logistics.</p>
<p>@Torveaux. Reread the opening post. This kind of guy is a woman’s nightmare. Actually he is everyone’s nightmare that has to deal with him. He does not negotiate, he is never wrong, he maintains control through intimidation and temper outbursts. It’s his way or no way.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>You have no idea. I WAS married to this kind of man for 23 years, and am now 5 years divorced from him. I don’t know what advice I gave that makes you think I don’t know about this situation, lived it every day for a long time. But even an a<strong>h</strong>* deserves to have a conversation from their spouse about ending the marriage before walking out the door unless she is concerned he will become violent, which of course requires a whole different approach. I agree he probably can’t and doesn’t want to change. But she doesn’t have to start with scorched earth – she just needs to be able to protect her interests no matter how he reacts.</p>
<p>A very good friend of mine has been married to her husband for 25 years. He is 10+ years older than her. Her H is very argumentative, especially after few drinks. The way he speaks to her could be kind of demeaning. She had considered leaving him about 10 years ago. She consulted a lawyer and knew what she would be entitled to (not much because most of his wealth was accumulated before they got married). His pros - he is a good provider, he takes good care of her (always made sure she is comfortable, has the food she wants when out to dinner), whenever she is upset he always tried to change his behavior, and he has a good heart. She decided to stay after weighing pros and cons. From what I can see, they are happy with their marriage. I know my friend also tells her H whenever he misbehaves, maybe that’s why it works for them now.</p>
<p>I wonder if OP’s H would change if he knows she wants a divorce. The question is then if it would be good enough for OP to stay.</p>
<p>I’m just getting caught up on this thread, but I laughed so hard when I saw this that soda flew out of my nose:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Rightfully? I speak as a smart person (I have the IQ score and the graduate degrees to “prove” it), and I’ll be the first to admit that I am OFTEN wrong and that I NEVER take it “personally” when someone disregards my advice. </p>
<p>It’s not a show of disrespect when someone considers advice and then ignores it - it’s just part of human nature. Someone who cannot realize this may have a high IQ but not much emotional intelligence.</p>
<p>Hugs to you, OP, and good luck, whatever your decision…</p>
<p>I’m a professional counselor, and I don’t feel disrespected when someone seeks my advice and doesn’t follow it. (I like to think I’m pretty smart and an expert in my field, too.) I may feel that they are being foolish, and I may privately roll my eyes, but it’s their life, not mine. It would be disrespectful to my clients for ME to suppose that someone hiring me for my advice has given me the right to make decisions for them.</p>
<p>The H does sound narcissistic, usually with people like that in my experience that are so full of themselves, they basically have a self confidence of zero and make up for that by claiming to be smarter than other people, always right, etc. One of the commenters asked if the guy was right and people ignored his advice and that is why he behaved as he did, but in reality that doesn’t matter. If people ask me advice I give them what I think, but I also recognize that in the end they make their own decisions and don’t take it as a personal affront, as the H seems to. The whole concept of “right” itself is muddied, if we are talking facts, there can be a right, but when it comes to opinions or ideas, what is right is ultimately what works for someone…</p>
<p>No one told the OP to get get a guerrilla divorce, talk to a lawyer and have the guy served without him knowing it, that wasn’t the point. If someone is thinking of divorce, they need to weight all the information, and divorce has legal and financial consequences that vary from state to state, and it is important to know that. The OP can talk to a lawyer to see what her options are, you don’t go to a lawyer and write up paperwork for divorce on the spot. Among other things, if the OP talks to a lawyer, and they tell her to find certain information, it is so they can come up with a plan if in fact she decides to file for divorce. Among other things, spouses can try to hide assets, if you have 10 years of tax returns that show the business returns X dollars a year on average, and the guys lawyer claims poverty on his behalf, or records show financial accounts that before the divorce showed Y dollars in them, and suddenly they are a lot less, it is a red flag (those are gross cases, obviously). People have tried everything in a divorce, hiding assets in offshore banks, ‘giving’ money to relatives, you name it…and if OP’s description of her husband is accurate, it sounds like he might be someone to go nuclear. Among other things, that knowledge can allow her the freedom of options. </p>
<p>I agree with others, it sounds like the OP probably already knows what her decision is. One suggestion I would have is to maybe give the guy one more chance, have a talk with him about what you are feeling, that you really think as a couple you need counseling and that you are not happy and that if things don’t change, you are afraid you can’t go on, be honest about it. If the guy listens and says something like “I didn’t know you were unhappy” and tries to talk to you, maybe there is a chance for the marriage, assuming OP feels that there is. If he blusters or otherwise belittles what she is saying, then I would tell the OP to think about moving forward. As they say, you can’t change another person, only they can, and if you make clear you are unhappy, that you can’t deal with the way things are, and they blow you off, there isn’t much you can do.</p>
<p>I was a bit troubled from some of the posts that while they are true in that we don’t have H’s side of this, that there was an assumption that since he was working and the OP was not, that somehow that made his behavior or the issues with their marriage less important. Sorry, but it takes a lot for someone to open up about a bad marriage or issues, even anonymously or online, and to claim that somehow that the OP is some whiny mom with bratty kids with the heroic husband who works is the really big one sided assumption. The fact that someone shares like this means there is something there, and reading the OP’s posts she isn’t calling him a monster, she said why she is not happy and she said she has tried to talk to him over the years and it has failed, and I didn’t see anyone bash the husband per se. No one said “leave the jerk”, no one said “you should roast him in divorce”, they tried to give advice to someone who to me doesn’t seem whiny, but rather like someone who really is unsure how to go forward. Calling her whiny or the kids brats is demonizing the OP, and it also quite frankly is insulting to those who are trying to give advice, because the advice I see here is caring and careful, no one is cheerleeding for her marrriage to end, no one is telling her to get the jerk, nothing like it…</p>
<p>And maybe I am sensitive, but for a different reason. I have been married for 26 years, and since basically before our S was born I have been the sole household income, my wife has been SAHM, and because of the things we wanted to provide for our son I sacrificed (as did my wife) to do the things we needed to, I work very stressful jobs that require long, long hours to make the kind of money to afford to do these things…and like the OP with her husband, we faced things as a couple on both sides that were tough, when my son was a baby I faced a very, very tense situation with my family of origin, one that saw my dad treating my wife like crap and being faced with in effect having to tell him he couldn’t be in our lives, which set off a whole chain of hurt from other members of my family…it was the hardest decision I ever made, but I never, ever would ever think like since I was the sole provider for my family, that that made it okay for my wife to be abused like she was, and when I saw what it was doing to her and to us, I made the choice I needed to make because I knew if I didn’t my wife would be miserable and our marriage, a joyless, angry mess, and I have zero regrets to this day making the choice I did, and not once did my being the sole income come into my thoughts in terms of how to deal with this. </p>
<p>In defense of OP, what that leaves out is often women who go SAHM route do so because they feel it is best for their children, that they do so because of their needs, and that she may very well would have preferred to be working. Among other things, when you go the SAHM route you are putting an incredible amount of trust on your spouse, because financially and otherwise it is a very, very tenuous position to be in. Despite popular myth of divorces, with the wife with the kids left sitting pretty and the husband destitute, many wives do very, very poorly after a divorce, and if they have dedicated years to their kids and raising them and such, if they then decide to get divorced they can find themselves financially disadvantaged because they haven’t worked for X years…so for her to contemplate divorce is probably even harder than a woman who has been working all along, because quite frankly they know it won’t be easy on their own after a divorce. (And I am assuming the OP is SAHM, the posts seem to indicate that). </p>
<p>He might get defensive but it would still make the point</p>
<p>" H does not have a diagnosable mental illness as has been suggested. He is a highly intelligent person who’s inflated ego leads him to believe he is virtually always right. (I understand that someone with a mental illness could fit that description but I am certain he does not.)</p>
<p>…he can be inappropriate in public too</p>
<p>… have tried to mirror some of his actions, which, while not my style naturally, would make me feel that things are more ‘fair’ or equitable but that backfired. At a very high level, I’d like dh to treat me the way he expects to be treated. I live in a very unequitable home.
"</p>
<p>He may have a Personality Disorder ( sounds like it). His inflated ego is actually likely a high level of insecurity… Actually a fragile ego. Hypocrisy and lack of filter and boundaries ( impulsiveness ) in public are all red flags</p>
<p>Read sax’s link…applies to these types.</p>
<p>About an attorney- not just a good one or one with lots of stars on the ratings. Needs to be one totally versed in the breadth and depth of what the woman should have a share of, able to anticipate, going forward, and willing to advocate, not just settle the details presented. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>While I can relate to this, that way of thinking is not only subsuming someone else’s free agency…it’s also taking on extra work and aggravation one doesn’t need. </p>
<p>IME, best thing to do for someone who has a pattern of asking for advice repeatedly and then ignoring it to their detriment is to either refrain from giving any more advice and to ask them to stop asking or to start charging them for it. :)</p>
<p>Life’s so much easier when such folks stop asking for free advice, ignoring it to their detriment, and then complaining about the consequences back to you…or if one does need to be troubled as such…to get some cash for your troubles. :D</p>
<p>Back to topic. </p>
<p>I wonder how SAHMs who divorce obtain “fairness” that considers their lost opportunities for career building and everything that goes with it, like retirement savings, SS taxes, etc. Do they get greater settlement b/c they need to train, enter a career at an older age, etc.? How can a SAHM who sacrificed her career be made “whole” in a divorce settlement? (I understand the biases within this question. Not looking to start a fight. Rather, hoping to learn about what seems to be a real issue middle-aged SAHMs face when divorcing.) </p>
<p>Often the wives get a period of alimony for a few years reschooling etc. Long term wives, in this state over 10 years, may get lifetime alimony but usually they still have to get some sort of a job (clerking at JCP or whatever) not just rely solely on alimony. Just as their husband can’t decide to quit/retire as to not have any income, they can’t decide not to have an income bc they haven’t in the past five/ten/twenty years…<br>
Wives get a share of the retirement/pensions of their spouses; SS is also based on H for long term spouses. Any child support will take into account the reasonable financial abilities of both parties…eg 70/30.</p>
<p>It seems like a few posters are personalizing this topic and projecting their own negative emotions onto the OP.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>And it seems like a few (very few) posters are personalizing this topic and projecting their own negative emotions onto the OP’s husband.</p>
<p>Oh my, some things developed on here while I was sleeping that make me a little uncomfortable. </p>
<p>Oh my, some things developed on here while I was sleeping that make me a little uncomfortable. </p>
<p>KKarma, years ago, during one of our many discussions (fights) I indicated how unhappy I was and that I was considering leaving. This was said maybe 3 times over a 2 month period. DH’s response was, “don’t bring it up again until you’re willing to do it.” He, at that point, said he’d never leave.</p>
<p>More recently, as different kids have left the house and some other life-changing dynamics occurred, including my efforts to change my behavior through therapy, dh has, himself, become less happy and we actually have discussed breaking up. Honestly, it’s a huge relief to me that it may be more mutual than I ever would have thought possible.</p>
<p>Bookworm, I actually stopped by my attorney of choice’s office today (was next door) but she was with clients. I left a message and am hoping for a call back while I’m alone this afternoon although, of course, I have no idea if/when she’ll call back. Definitely difficult to get/find an attorney.</p>
<p>Torveaux, yes, I’m going ‘behind his back’ to see an attorney but just to obtain information. I do think it’s over and that I or, at this point, maybe it will be him, will take the first step sometime over the next school year. I’m sure it would be a separation initially and there would be no suprising ‘presenting of papers’. Your words are quite off…he’s thrilled to be back at work (was off for awhile) and is one of those types who will probably never retire. We actually don’t have bratty kids who ‘run to mommy’ and, no, I didn’t take my kid’s side in the argument I described upthread. And, as long as I started, dh and I have talked, and talked and talked. He’s a difficult personality (which he admits), has poor communication skills or, perhaps I should just say communication skills that are very different from mine, which make actually resolving issues virtually impossible.</p>
<p>Scout59, your post made me smile! The type of advice to which my dh is offended/angered if not taken has included…my musing about whether I would take a sweater from the car to an outside event. I actually didn’t even ‘ask his advice’ or even ask at all. Rather, it was quiet on the drive and I commented about the weather and said something about my sweater –truly minor, inconsequential talk on an otherwise silent drive which, as an aside, if I’m ever “too” quiet, he becomes annoyed with me as well. He said I wouldn’t need my sweater. By the time we arrived (an hour later), the sun had disappeared and it looked colder than it had been so I took, my sweater. Later he let me know how annoying it was to have been asked if I wasn’t going to take his advice. This isn’t an example of it but one difference between us is that I enjoy collaboration and am an information-gatherer. He’s not. I actually have learned to engage in this type of behavior with my friends and stay away from it with dh as I know it’s not his style. (Cobrat, I think my husband would agree with you and, thus, I have stopped asking.)</p>
<p>It’s just very tough to make such a big change after 30 years. I’ve been with him more than half my life and it’s truly the most difficult decision I’ve had to make even though, yes, I think I have probably made it. Having said that, on my good days, my last ditch chance is that I will try to get him to go to therapy with me once the nest is empty. I’m trying to find a good therapist with evening or weekend hours as, while I doubt he’ll agree, I know he will never agree to miss work for it. I have appreciated the comments about the down side to therapy, particularly in light of therapy’s predisposition to ‘talk it all out’ recognizing that dh is not a guy who is inclined to appreciate that approach.</p>
<p>Musicprnt and so many others, thank you for your thoughtful, supportive posts. This has all been so helpful.</p>