<p>What if last night was a final exam, of sorts, for the three-year course that I have been teaching. If so, he struggled a little but he passed the test (even though I proctored it).</p>
<p>What if last night hadn’t been a school night? Would you have allowed a 1 or 2am return home? Was the issue that it was a school night?</p>
<p>Yes, I guess the initial issue for us parents was that it was a school night. We were taken by surprise by party plans on a school night, and being the slow-moving dinosaurs that we are, just couldn’t adapt to this new scenario quickly enough. Son has a long-term project that is not yet finished and starts his summer lifeguarding job this weekend. I know from past years that once he gets into pool mode, he considers it to be summer and schoolwork falls by the wayside. So we’re trying to keep some academic structure going, which means treating weeknights in a different manner than weekend nights. If it was a weekend night, he would have been allowed to stay out until 1 or 2am as usual.</p>
<p>The secondary issue was that since my husband was involved in the midnight curfew decision, I then felt locked into the midnight curfew even though, as it turned out, my son didn’t leave the house until almost 11pm. I then didn’t want to extend son’s curfew (because of the late start beyond his control) because I didn’t want my son to conclude that it is okay for us to operate behind my husband’s back. (Husband had been crystal clear about his opinion on the matter but was by this time asleep.)</p>
<p>And lastly, the other issue was my son’s uncharacteristic intensity about the night. His vibes were throwing me off.</p>
<p>Now, a day later, I’m thinking that it would be good experience for son to juggle school, sports practice, the long-term project, lifeguarding, and going out at night. I am thinking that I’ll let him try this for a week and see how it goes. I’ll tell him to pretend he’s in college, to figure out how to get everything done, and get enough sleep so that he doesn’t fall asleep at the wheel. He is convinced that he can manage it.</p>
<p>
I am glad you wrote this, because as I read through your initial post that is exactly what struck me – but I didn’t know how to say it without sounding harsh. But the point is, as you have recognized, you gained a rather hollow victory and nothig in the way of sleep. I was also struck by your recitation of the long round of wheedling that preceded it all. It would honestly drive me nuts if either of my kids pressured me that way – I think that is why I have always leaned toward having very few, but very firm, rules. I just don’t have patience for arguing over the rules – the ones I do have (such as zero tolerance for drinking and driving) are pretty hard to argue against.</p>
<p>In any case, I’ve already said that each family needs to come to its own determination, but in my curfewless home, there would have been very little discussion. My daughter would have mentioned tht she planned to be out late, I would have asked what “late” meant, she would have told me a probable return time, I would have asked her to call home at a specified time (usually midnight) to give me an update on plans - there would have been no debate, no begging, no justifying, no stomping around, no guilt. More often than not, in my curfewless home, the kid arrives home earlier than announced. </p>
<p>
If you have imposed a rule that he doesn’t agree with or think is fair, then I don’t see how there would not be some level of resentment. What strikes me is that you are describing a situation of mistrust. In my curfewless home, there is actually an invisible, loose “curfew” - it is the time my daughter has set herself and told me, by which she must either be home or have called to notify me of a change of plans. There is nothing for my daughter to resent or feel angry about - and I feel o.k. because I have a sense that I always know where she is and what she is doing.
But he didn’t sneak out. You think that maybe he wanted to… but that is your suspicion. Maybe he was going to come home and sulk, whether or not you were awake to witness the sulking. It seems to me that you are anticipating a violation of trust and contemplating what the punishment should be, rather than working toward avoiding the violation of trust in the first place. Once trust is breached - it is gone – a punishment may make you feel better, but it isn’t going to change the situation. If you have to enforce “trust” by imposing a consequence, then there is no “trust” in the first place. </p>
<p>I am not trying to criticize you - just suggesting that maybe there is a different way to approach this. Why don’t you look at his upcoming graduation date as a good point of demarcation? You could sit with him and say something like, once he graduates from high school, you want to give him the freedom he deserves as an adult, but you still want respect for the needs of other household members – and ask him to suggest rules and guidelines as to how to deal with things like curfews, being realistic about the time that you and others in the household usually go to bed and get up each morning. Along with more freedom can come more responsibilities around the house - there is nothing wrong with quid pro quo.</p>
<p>Calmom, I appreciate your insights. I have been very specific in my descriptions and thank you for addressing some points in detail.</p>
<p>I don’t know why I thought he might sneak out. It was just a vibe I got. We haven’t talked about it in a couple of years. I would rather talk about actions in advance than punish actions after the fact. </p>
<p>You say, “If you have to enforce “trust” by imposing a consequence, then there is no “trust” in the first place”. I think trusting a child is different than providing the child with guidelines and making them aware of consequences. For instance, let’s say I trust my child to drive at the speed limit. We talk about it, and discuss what would happen if, by chance, he was caught driving too fast and got a speeding ticket. Even though I trust him, getting a speeding ticket is a possibility. If he got a speeding ticket, the consequences would be that he would have to pay the fine with his own money, and possibly cause our insurance to go up, in which case, he would have to pay the differential with his own money. In addition, in our state, one can lose their license if they accrue enough points for speeding violations. These are very real consequences that might happen when one chooses to drive over the speed limit, and don’t even include the possibility of losing control of a speeding vehicle, hitting a deer on the road, etc. Do I hope that my son considers these consequences when he makes a decision about his rate of speed? Sure. Does pointing out that he’ll have to pay for body work or tickets mean that I trust him less? No. Sometimes consequences provide a ceiling that helps to reinforce the desired behavior.</p>
<p>I have a question about how you handle things after your kids come home. Let’s say you daughter gets in at 2am. Is she then “in” for the night? If at 3am she decides she wants to drive herself to the 7-11 for a slurpee, or go to a friend’s house, can she do it? Does she need to wake you up, or just leave a note?</p>
<p>speckledegg-</p>
<p>The discussion of curfews is interesting because the term “curfew” takes on various meanings. For me (and you, it seems) a curfew is a time by which the child must be at home. I set a 2am curfew because my son and I don’t always discuss where he is going or when he’ll be in. </p>
<p>For calmom, her D has to set her own curfew…but it’s still a curfew (IMHO)…just a child-set curfew. Her D has to say when she’ll be home, and if plans change, she has to check in by a certain time and advise.
It sounds like a good system. For me, the purpose of the curfew is not to get him in by a certain time, it’s to give me a sense of when to worry. How do I know if he’s on the side of the road in a ditch unless I know when to expect him home. Calmom’s system addresses that need.
My son has never complained about his curfew because I am loose about it. If he wants to stay out later, he asks and tells me when he plans on being home. I have never disagreed. If his plans change, he calls and gives me the update and I have always gone along with it. But, the revised time is still the limit, or curfew…unless I get another call (which has never happened). Maybe you and I should try the “tell me when” and “just call” curfew. Somehow, though, I think our son’s might get the idea to set a 3 or 4am limit for for themselves, knowing they can ALWAYS come in earlier. Boys will be boys.</p>
<p>Hypothetically, if my daughter came home at 2 and then wanted to go out for a slurpee at 3, I suppose it would be fine… but I can’t say that it has ever come up. Usually when she comes home late she goes straight to bed. In any case I wouldn’t expect her to wake me or leave a note if she were only running out to the 7/11 (which does happen to be very near our house, so as far as your example goes, we do both make very frequent trips over there). So maybe its just a bad example for us, since the 7-11 run doesn’t really qualify as “out” but more like the logical extension of our pantry. Plus the 7-11 is the favorite hangout for the local cops - so its probably also the safest corner in town. </p>
<p>I’ve thought about this, and I really do think that family structure and personalities play a part. So, one reason I’m not concerned about a curfew is that my d. really isn’t out raising hell or tearing up the town. She like to hang out with friends, but she also likes to sleep. Maybe when she goes to college there will be more late night comings and goings, but here once she gets home there is usually no where else to go. </p>
<p>By family structure I’m referring to the fact that I am a single, working parent – that meant that growing up my kids spent a lot more unsupervised time at home than I would have liked, but I just wasn’t able to master the art of being 2 places at once. So it meant that I had to expect a certain degree of independence and self-sufficiency from each of my kids to make our lifestyle work. Communication was important, but it was also important for the kids to be able to make their own plans and their own arrangements for transportation. So for me, the authoritarian “I set the rules” style of parenting didn’t work – but that doesn’t mean that my kids were running around wild or that I don’t make my feelings known. I expected my kids to make good choices and act responsibly. </p>
<p>I mean, I often ASK my daughter to come home by a certain time - usually when I ask she agrees – its just that I haven’t laid down rules about it.</p>
<p>My D (16) has to come up and kiss us goodnight. She hasn’t had any events that keep her out past midnight, but regardless, she gives us hugs goodnight. Its a way of checking in.</p>
<p>I tell my Ds that their father (DH) calls and tells me his plans, if he is going to be late, whatever, so does my mom who lives with us. I share my plans with everyone as well. We try and model what we expect. This way, we deal with it as a common courtesy, and not as a punishment or not trusting them.</p>
<p>If D calls, and asks to stay out a little later, I usually say yes, after getting some details, such as where, who, how, etc. </p>
<p>it has worked well so far. There are times when D has potential plans, but would rather stay home and chill. Shows she isn’t pushed to just do anything for the sake of doing something.</p>
<p>My biggest "rules’ are that she checks in with me periodically, especially if locations change. This way, if I end up being the transportation, I can plan accordingly. I also ask that she have a bit of a clue (try getting 8 teenagers to plan something) of what they are going to do. And once they decide to let me know. And give me ballpark timeline.</p>
<p>So far so good.</p>
<p>After my 17 year old left on Gap Year, he no longer had a curfew. Since that time, he’s had one incident of ill manners (coming in at dawn when he said he would be home at 1 on the night before a 30 hour long haul flight.</p>
<p>Before that time, our curfew was quite strict between the ages of 14 1/2 and 17 1/2. In fact, we had a screaming match with S2 last night. He wants to spend the night after a party on Saturday. We’ve said no, not during the school terms. He said we treat him like he is 12. We said that if he was 12, we’d probably let him spend the night.</p>
<p>We did extend his midnight curfew to 2 am for this special occasion on the condition he pre-order a taxi home, but in my mind, nothing wonderful happens for young teenagers in the wee hours of the morning. Plus, a 2 am hello from Mum and Dad puts the brakes on some behaviors.</p>
<p>Oh yeah, did I mention that we don’t have perfect angels who don’t imbibe or break rules? Our boys need black and white boundaries. They hop right into grey areas.</p>
<p>I know heaps of parents who (feverishly) believe they have angels. In fact, according to my information, they have regular kids like mine. </p>
<p>I’ll let mine take a month long canoe journey through the artic tundra with five peers and a couple of 18 year old camp counselors. I’ll let them go to Africa when they are 17–but I won’t have them treating our house like a hotel, coming and going at all hours when they are half grown and high on testosterone.</p>
<p>It ain’t happenin’ at my house.</p>
<p>And plus Cheers yours like to throw bananas, right?</p>
<p>A parent secret///sshhhh/// when kid hugs and kisses you good night, you can get a look at how they are, and a whiff!! kind of sneaky, but if they know they have to say goodnight no matter what…we started this early, and my Ds laugh about it, but they know they have to connect with us when they come home. I trust my Ds, and so far, I haven’t (knock on wood) had many problems besides some attitude, but with what we expect clear from the start and ingrained in those little brains, there is less arguing. Before they go out, I discuss what is expected so there is no “you never said that” kind of thing. Its always casual and fun, and I even say what I expect in front of her friends (gasp), but somehow Ds survive.</p>
<p>It is kind of silly and my H and I joke with our Ds about how annoying the parental units are. But since I am often the driver, I can be annoying</p>
<p>Whenever they complain about checking in, I say “well, its better than sitting in the living room with me, isn’t it?”</p>
<p>Just to clarify, for the last year or so my son has been proposing his “curfew” or “time that you are expected home” for the night. He generally proposes to return home prior to 2am. Usually I agree with what he proposes unless there are overriding reasons, such as if I know that he’s very fatigued after a heavy week. Usually the discussion includes two aspects: plans for the night (who’s driving, who he’ll be with, where he’s going) as well as plans and responsibilities for the next day. I want him to link these things in his mind. If he is not driving, I also inquire about whether he plans to drink and if so, how he will pace himself. If he is driving, we don’t need to discuss drinking because he will not drink and drive.</p>
<p>2am seems to be late enough to have ample fun, yet early enough to be able to clock at least 4-5 hours of sleep before school or job. He rarely goes to sleep as soon as he gets home. </p>
<p>2am also happens to be the latest I can manage to stay up and manage to function effectively the next day. Later than that is a killer for me. Even if I happen to fall asleep, he does have to check in when he gets home and I do evaluate his condition. If I have concerns I will bring it up the next day.</p>
<p>After three years of this, we’ve now reached the point at which we both need to take it to the next level. There’s not much more I can say, and he needs to learn some things for himself. I would like to give him more leash, maybe the whole leash. In 15 weeks he will be at college where he can come and go at all hours. I am looking for ways for him to practice this over the next few weeks, without disrupting our family too much. I’m almost ready to do this, but am stuck on how to handle the hypothetical post-curfew (post-arrival home) trip to 7-11 described above, which has already come up in our household. I don’t know why I feel differently about having him make a second trip out, when he could easily have bought the slurpee on his way home to begin with. </p>
<p>On the issue of consequences, I would like to recommend a book I found to be more helpful than most. It is “Uncommon Sense for Parents with Teenagers” by Michael Riera.</p>
<p>My cousin that lives here is 18. He is normally home by 11 on a school night (he typically works till 10). On weekends he is either home by 12 or spends the night at one of his friends houses. I’ve never seen him come home after midnight… although i’ve only been living at home for the past two weeks :)</p>
<p>My little sister is 16. She doesn’t have her license yet… and neither do any of her friends (she is getting it next week). this means that she barely ever goes anywhere unless my parents or i take her… If my parents are taking her, she’s gotta be home by 9 or so… unless she’s spending the night. If she’s with me, it doesn’t matter when she’s home. She visited me out at my school a few weeks ago and i had her out till 1 AM at my friends house… and she often goes with me to concerts and we don’t get home till 1 or so… I know when i was 16 I stayed out really late, but i would stay out late with like 19-21 year olds and could get rides home… </p>
<p>I haven’t ever really had a curfew. Or a bed time. When I was out at school I would often stay out with friends on school nights till 3 or 4 in the morning… probably not the brightest thing to do, but oh well. I don’t stay out that late when i’m at home though… i usually try to be home by like 1-2… because I don’t want to wake up my entire family strolling in at 4 AM… at least if i wake them up at 1 or 2 they can still get another 5 or 6 hours sleep, haha.</p>
<p>
speckledegg, there is sometimes a temptation to need the teen’s acceptance and “happiness” with our parenting decisions before we feel confident that we have done right. I feel that is too much to expect of them, or of ourselves. They are at the peak of trying to be their own full adult selves at age 18, with no need for parental input/supervision/guidance, but they are not quite there. Anything short of giving them that full freedom runs the risk of not garnering their full acceptance at this time. But that doesn’t mean you haven’t done a great job.</p>
<p>To me, you have handled all of this very well. The family dynamic with H wanting something different than you would have done on your own puts you in a push-pull situation that made this particular night’s events and decisions harder on you than might be normal. But all, or almost all of us two-parent families, have been there-done that. Certainly, I experienced that dynamic here at jmmom’s house quite often. This is also not such a bad thing for our kids - life will place them in situations where they have to acknowledge/negotiate different perspectives, of more than one supervisor, etc…</p>
<p>Your S’ life situation right now involves a tremendous number of pushes and pulls - still has coursework, about to start a job, the “this is it” social/relationship environment all of our Srs are now experiencing. He is navigating them, as are you, but it is inevitable that there are stresses. My S’ hs has Senior Transition Project right now - 3 weeks of outside community service/job shadowing or whatever - so classes and grades are over. Makes it a lot easier and you aren’t benefitting from this easing up of the environment.</p>
<p>I, for one,am very impressed with how you have handled things and your forward-looking thoughts to giving your S experience in the juggling act he will soon have on his plate. This is our job - giving them roots and wings - and you seem to me to have your eye squarely on that ball.</p>
<p>
This is exactly what I have been “teaching” my S. In their quest for independence, they seem to only see the no rules/no one to answer to view of independence. But there is the simple courtesy that adults and family members offer each other to avoid needless worry. He still resists a little, but he gets it.</p>
<p>Cheers-
Did you son call when he was going to come in at dawn, rather than 1am? If not, I can’t imagine how you must have panicked that night. I would have aged 5 years!</p>
<p>Our sun is 18, 11pm weekdays and on Friday and Saturday the car has to be home by 1:00am after 1 am I will either pick him up or drive him to wherever he wants to go ( no questions asked) including his friends. There are music clubs in the area that stay open till 2 am and allow under 21, I drive him and his friends regardless of the time.</p>
<p>Speckledegg, it sounds like when it comes down to it that there really isn’t that big of a difference in what we do - more how we frame it. I don’t have a “curfew” or lay down “rules” – but like citygirlsmom I expect common courtesy. My daughter has somewhat more freedom than my son did, but only because she has her own cell phone. When my son was her age - 17 - he was sharing a cell phone with his sister - he usually carried it, but the one time we had a misunderstanding about his being out later than expected was when he had given the phone to her.</p>
<p>I did have a tiff with my daughter about the “who calls” procedure - I would ask her to call by X time, she’d forget, I’d be ticked off. She’d apologize, say she’d lost track of time, and ask why I didn’t call her. I’d say that I didn’t want to embarass her or interrupt her, and insist that she had to call me. She said she always keeps her phone on and it is o.k. for me to call any time, no matter what. In the end, she won that discussion, because I realized that we were really arguing about something silly – I would rather she call me, as it seems more respectful, but I’m the one watching the clock. So now, if I don’t hear from her at the agreed time, I always call at 1 minute past. </p>
<p>Family dynamic and style really seem to be at the heart of this. I don’t lay down the rules or give orders, but I “ask” for what I want: “can you try to be home by 10?” or “I’d rather you didn’t stay out so late on a school night.” I also suggest and remind: you may have decided that your son needs his sleep, so you set a limit - I’m having the same conversation with my daughter about sleep, just letting her make the ultimate decision. Having to drag oneself out of bed after only 3 hours of sleep is one of those consequences that tend to reinforce the lesson in any case. And I certainly am not averse to saying “I told you so.” </p>
<p>To some this may seem like weak parenting, but I very rarely get any resistance – usually it’s, “sure, o.k.” - when not, instead of having to ask, whine, beg, or argue, my daughter will say something like, “I promised to give so-and-so a ride home, so I think it will take me longer to get back.” On school nights, the event that is keeping her out is usually school related - a rehearsal or a meeting or a school performance, so these conversations are usually based on very rational criteria. Partly this is simply our personalities. I don’t like to yell or scream or give orders, and I get very angry if my orders are disobeyed or if a kid argues or whines. When my d. was a little girl she would burst into tears if there was the slightest hint of my being angry at her - even raising my voice was tremendously upsetting to her. So I learned early on that it didn’t take much in the way of a “suggestion” to get her to do what I wanted. Why argue when politely asking is so much more effective? So we are both much happier to deal with one another in ways that avoid direct confrontation. </p>
<p>Ironically, my son was very different - he was the little rebel with the stubborn streak, impervious to threats of punishment - the kind of little kid who would end up testing limits on everything. But by his teen years, I had learned for very different reasons that an authoritarian style wouldn’t work - he was the type of kids who thought all rules were made to be broken. So with him it was a case more of reverse psychology. “I don’t care, stay out as late as you want” would result in him deciding he didn’t need to go out after all and cancelling his plans. “Be home at 11 or else” would have guaranteed a 1:00 a.m. arrival. I ended up getting along very well with him. As the older sibling in a one-parent household, he had a tremendous amount of responsibility at home and was very reliable. As long as I let him be in control, he tended to have a more conservative approach to things than any set of rules I would have come up with – he actually would tell me he was going out to a party and then show up home before 9. </p>
<p>So again – we all have our own ways of relating to one another. I think in the end its all about communicating effectively and finding the right combination that works for everyone in the household. It’s easy for me right now because it is a 2-person household – so my daughter and I don’t really have to think about anybody’s needs other than how we relate to one another.</p>
<p>Yes, S2 was thrown out of his house at school for two weeks for leaning out of a second storey window and throwing a banana at the cricket batter in the court below.</p>
<p>The rules couldn’t get more black and white at his all-boys’ school. </p>
<p>S1 didn’t call to say he would be late. He was 18 at the time. I went to bed at 11 and woke at 4 to find his bed empty. But this is a boy who travelled through Uganda on low budget safari. I wasn’t worried, just annoyed. Really really annoyed.</p>
<p>Calmom, I agree that it’s pretty much the same philosophy. I’d much prefer to rule the roost through agreement and mutual understanding than conflict and ultimatums. The word “curfew” has a harsh ring but I don’t know a better word for the time one is expected home and “off the streets”. Interestingly, the kids do use the term “curfew”. (I’ve noticed that they also seem to prefer the term “punishment” to its parental counterpart, "consequence’.)</p>
<p>My kids seem to have the reverse of your kids’ temperaments. My younger one responds better to reverse psychology. He likes the power dynamic, he likes to win. He will sometimes continue to argue and I have to interrupt and say, “Stop arguing! I agree with you!”. Somehow I have ended up with both ends of the spectrum. And not only that, the older brother who was always “easy” has turned out to be the more complicated and moodier person, while the younger brother who was very difficult from newborn through age 10 now has a direct manner and is a delight to be around. I’ve had to toughen myself up a little because when not being delighful, he can get to me.</p>
<p>The younger son at 13 is more businesslike and impatient and tolerates much less discussion. He doesn’t really care if we agree, because he’s convinced that his way is THE way. He is more intense and decisive and all dealings with him have much less grey area. He can be brash, is exceedingly persistant, and will hold his ground. He is very much like my husband. From a young age he has stepped in to negotiate for his older brother, for instance, “I think (my brother) should get more money to babysit me.” </p>
<p>So when my older son stood up to my husband the other night, and continued to press his point, it was a little bit of a milestone. And one I’d like to encourage. He probably needs to develop stronger boundaries and greater assertiveness. (as does his mom!) He has always been flexible and cooperative, and does better with a consensus building approach. If I feel strongly about something, he will listen and consider my view even if he doesn’t agree.</p>
<p>On the issue of adequate sleep, I could talk myself blue in the face about fatigue and etc. My older son is not an early bird under the best of conditions. He regularly operates on very little sleep. I have pledged to myself that, this summer, if he cannot get himself up in the morning and get to work on time, then I will not wake him up. Let him learn through that experience. He surprised me this year. After having to drag him out of bed K-11 so that he wouldn’t cause his brother to be late for school, I was sure that he would have trouble getting to school on time in 12th grade. He started driving himself to school this year. Not only did he manage to get himself up each morning, but picked up two other kids on the way to school. Go figure. </p>
<p>Meanwhile, the younger son had a good day on the baseball diamond last week. He attributed it to a good night’s sleep! He made sure to go to bed early the night, completely voluntarily, before the next game. But since the game was rained out, he was unable to test his theory.</p>
<p><a href=“I’ve%20noticed%20that%20they%20also%20seem%20to%20prefer%20the%20term%20%22punishment%22%20to%20its%20parental%20counterpart,%20%22consequence’.”>quote</a>
[/quote]
Actually, I’m confused by those terms being used interchangeably – in my family, a “consequence” is always something that occurs either as a natural result of an act, or without parental decision/intervention. So if my daughter doesn’t do her laundry, then the fact that she has no clean clothes to wear is the consequence of her laziness; if she stays up until 3 am the night before the SAT,then her lousy score will be in part the consequence of her poor decision. If my kid breaks something or makes a mess, and I make the kid repair or replace or clean up – that’s a consequence, too. </p>
<p>But I would never call something like grounding a kid or taking away privilegesa consequence - to me that’s a punishment. I suppose that your system of subtracting minutes from the next night’s curfew based on the overtime used for a late arrival is a consequence - though it is imposed by you, it is a clear, automatically-imposed, self-enforcing rule. </p>
<p>Anyway, I don’t want to argue the point – I just see “consequence” as meaning something very different than punishment.</p>
<hr>
<p>I had to laugh when reading about your son who continues to argue the point even if you agree with him. That definitely was my son, exactly. Everyone knew it, too - even in elementary school he had a reputation of arguing every point endlessly with his teachers. Like your younger one, he was something of a know-it-all, too. World’s expert on everything.</p>