How much time do you spend with your elderly parents?

Parent Cafe
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<p>Before our father passed away, my siblings and I were somewhat in the dark about our parents’ finances. The uncertainty had an adverse impact on the trust among us, especially since two siblings have been very helpful over the years and one sibling very little. I agree it must be simpler in families where there is only one adult child/caregiver, and no siblings to create an imbalance in terms of contribution to caregiving and/or financial support.</p>

<p>momma-three, it could be very helpful to bring a third party (ie your father’s attorney) to lay out everything on the table in terms of finances, your father’s caregiving needs, and the facts showing the imbalance in caregiving by you, your brother, and your sisters’ children. My mother’s attorney has not hesitated to point out that her situation warrants an extraordinary amount of care, and that we need to plan accordingly (and fairly to all concerned). It is also VERY helpful that we now have complete picture of her finances - crucial to our planning.</p>

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<p>Start with the upcoming vacation week - here you can use those “I” phrases, i.e., I have planned this vacation and cannot change it, We must get help for this week. There are temporary help agencies tha solve just this kind of problem. From there, it should be easier to make the transition to you needing one day a week off, or eliminating one of your daily “shifts.” Write down a list of everything you do and the time it takes, ostensibly for the temporary caregiver, but also for your brother to see and acknowledge. (I’ll bet he wouldn’t clean up urine unless he was stuck to the floor.)
Believe me, when I read of your situation, it reminds me of my own mom, who took care of her mother, her in-laws, her aunts and now helps every neighbor and old friend that she can. People like that are worth our cherishing and supporting, but they have to be their own advocates as well.</p>

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<p>momma-three – peonies’ advice about bringing in an attorney or other third party is good as gold. It’s essential to get all the facts on the table, so that everyone has the same information. It is so damaging when parents are secretive in this situation, or include some children while excluding others. You all need to know everything; it’s the only way to make intelligent decisions, and incidentally, is probably the only way to prevent a permanent rift between your brother and yourself after your dad’s death. </p>

<p>Consulting an outsider also circumvents the family dynamics which often stand in the way of a rational discussion. I think it’s much easier for elder parents to accept suggestions and advice when they come from someone besides one of their children. That’s a role reversal that’s just very difficult for them to accept, especially dads IMO. </p>

<p>Also, you might see if there’s a caregiver support organization near you. They should have all kinds of ideas for making sure that your father has the appropriate care, and support and resources for you.</p>

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<p>I just got back from my dads house for the second time today. I did some filing and made it a point to look through his files. I am so upset right now that I don’t even know what to say. All of my fathers accounts are in joint control with my brother. These accounts are not listed in the estate. There is more than enough money to hire care but what do I say about this? I should not have looked and would rather have not known. I am so hurt right now and I never would have expected to see that in a million years.</p>

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<p>Perhaps it is time for you to find a lawyer who specializes in elder care and estate planning. Perhaps you need some ideas and then perhaps you need to sit with your father and explain your brother’s little secret to him about being reimbursed and how you are losing income and family time as you deal with his care. I wonder if your brother saw to it that your father’s will states that he will be paid back in full for whatever he has covered for your father. I don’t know if you want to sit as a family or handle some of this directly with your father. Your brother did not seem to consult with you about these matters.</p>

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<p>Momma-three.</p>

<p>Just say NO. Say NO to working for nothing. </p>

<p>Take care of yourself. Take care of your family. Put yourself and your family’s needs first.</p>

<p>I hope it all works out for you.</p>

67

<p>Try not to enter into the discussions with Bro assuming he has any intent to “screw” you, maybe he does, maybe he doesn’t, maybe it made sense at the time they put the accounts into the joint control. When you say they are not in the estate, I think they are technically part of Dad’s estate, they may not be vested as part of a trust, but they are legally part of Dad’s estate, though as a joint holder, yes, I do think your brother could empty them at Dad’s death, but I also think the executor could hold that these account values are part of the 100% to be divided.</p>

<p>I am joint on all my parent’s accounts, but then I am also executor, but I also am doing 99% of what has been done and will continue to be done so the situation is different, but I would be sad if my siblings assumed nefarious reasons for the joint tenancy on the accounts. I actually pay all the bills and make most of the decisions and that is per my instructions with guidelines from them and all receipts are filed by them, so plenty of room for review. </p>

<p>I can see how an unethical person could take advantage of the situation and it is time for you to clear the air.</p>

<p>But, I would look at this like a talk with the school principal, meaning if they get you to react emotionally, they have won and your thoughts & feelings will be discounted.</p>

<p>How about picking your audience- attorney, brother, dad, and simply letting them know you are unable to continue the physical care taking, perhaps tossing in some info regarding a physician’s recommendation (hey, there are docs on CC), but don’t allow them to distract you with why you cannot, just keep coming back to the part where you cannot act as a caregiver, you need to hire a CNA to do caregiving. This will allow you to go back to being a daughter, and like your brother spends all the breakfast times with dad, you too could spend companionable time with Dad.</p>

<p>I wonder why my sister says to her friends? She lives about 20-30 minutes away and for the past couple of years has done most of the doctor visits, but nothing else. We have done daily stuff and bi-weekly dinners, home maintenance, etc. I do not say one is more valuable than the other, nor would one or the other always be more time consuming, but I know my family is an invaluable emotional resource for my parents in a way that my sister never could be, due to personality and lifestyle differences. There is nothing judgmental about that, she is just very very very different than they are.</p>

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<p>Somemom…I have asked both my brother and my father about the financial situation and have been told there is “not much”. There is plenty of money to hire companions that will care for him and a cleaning person. There is at least enough for the next two years just on what I saw today. I did not even look further once I found two accounts. I was also the executrix for years until my brother suggested that we both share in the responsibilties. It was changed three years ago. I am not accusing my brother of doing anything wrong down the road, but he has done something wrong right now. He told me there was not much, when in fact, there is enough.</p>

<p>I am so sad that both my father and brother would hide something like this. What the heck did they think I was asking for? I have never asked for a penny from either my dad or my brother, and have been self sufficient since the age of 22. Even when things were difficult, when my husband lost his job, I never asked my father or brother for help. I am deeply hurt and angry that this was hidden from me. When my sister was alive, it was me that she came to for emotional and financial help. I never kept a tally and NEVER would have thought to “bill” her estate. I am beyond words.</p>

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<p>momma-three: I am really sorry. On the one hand, your brother may not be doing anything unethical or trying to take advantage of you. On the other hand, you shouldn’t be doing as much as you are doing now either. If I were in your shoes, I would tell your father and brother to hire someone to take care of your father. You would be happy to drop by few times a week visit your father or have him come over for dinner, but you will not be doing chores around your father’s house. I agree with previous poster to just say NO. If you don’t do it, they will have to come up with the money to hire someone to do it.</p>

<p>My parents don’t want to spend any money, and they make us (really me) to pay for a lot of things for them (dinners, vacations, lawn mowing…) because they want to leave some money for us when they pass away. I would rather for them to enjoy their money and pay for those things themselves instead of leaving us with any “inheritance.”</p>

<p>Your father and brother may think it’s really not that big of a deal for you to do few little things around the house, so why waste good money in hiring an outsider to do it. Most people think if someone puts some money out, then it must be paid back, but not the case if it’s someone’s time.</p>

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<p>M3- sorry if that came out wrong, I am on your side, but trying to think of how to make the discussion come out for the best. You don’t want the discussion to turn into a complaint session…a litany of your being the victim, all you would get from that is maybe some sympathy, Instead you want a solution, you want a fix, so try your best to vent on us & other safe people so that your discussion with your brother and dad is totally business like, so you get the outcome you want.</p>

<p>On the one hand, remember, you have all the power, You can simply stop doing what you are doing and let them deal with it all if they are not responsive to you. On the other hand don’t threaten that, it may put them in a defensive position.</p>

<p>Your brother may be clueless, or he may be evil, or he may be thinking to conserve every penny so that Dad has options for a “home” some day. I am just suggesting that you go in and act like you assume the very highest quality behaviour. Say & imply in each thing, that you assume your brother is taking the high road-then he either is doing that or he will have to admit he is not, which is tough to do…to admit, no, i was not being ethical, i was being scummy.</p>

<p>Talk to your CC buddies and your live support people and figure out what you want and simply & unemotionally ask for it and leave out of the discussion all the anger & sadness at how you have been treated. You can still voice that later, but it will just muddy the water now. Does that make sense?</p>

<p>I’ve done a lot of union negotiating and this was always taught to us as an important technique to reach success, leave the emotions out, don’t yearn for sympathy, look for solution.</p>

<p>Basically you can tell them, “Hey guys, we need to hire a helper 4 hours a day and I am willing to check into some services or would you prefer to check with people you know” Assume they will agree.</p>

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<p>^^^ I do far more than a few things but I have done it because I wanted to. I am just getting very tired and feel stressed that I do not have any me time to go out for the day and enjoy. If I get away for the day I am there in the very early morning and than head back in the late evening. As I said I also have my own business so time is devoted to my dad and my business.</p>

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<p>Don’t panic. All of one of our parents’ accounts are held jointly by one of the siblings. That sibling pays ALL of their bills and handles their finances. </p>

<p>I would say…however…you need to have a family meeting about your dad’s care. From what you are posting here, your dad needs more care than you can reasonably provide yourself. This needs to be clearly stated to your siblings.</p>

73

<p>Due to DH’s medical condition which leaves him wheelchair bound, I spent a lot of time and effort taking care of him the best I could. Eventually his condition and my own fragile health got to a point where we had to make the very uncomfortable decision to have hired help. We started with 3 mornings a week, we are now up to 7 mornings and 5 evenings a week. It has been a double-edged sword. I am extremely happy that help is available and that for now we can afford it…but it took a long time for me to get used to strangers in my house all the time, including in my bedroom! It’s not easy being the caregiver in any situation, it takes a real toll physically and emotionally. </p>

<p>Here’s my perspective: If you (as caregiver and/or adult child) believe that you’ll get outside help eventually when you can’t take it anymore…do yourself a favor and don’t wait till you’re at the breaking point. There is no prize for working/worrying yourself to the breaking point. </p>

<p>As far as the other person not wanting strangers in the house, or not wanting help…learn the phrase “too bad”. Your family member will get used to it (or not) now, just like they will in 6 or 12 or 18 months when YOU are exhausted, so just bite the bullet and get the help now.</p>

<p>Well, that’s my 2 cents. I wish I hadn’t waited so long to get outside help, even though having outsiders in our house is very disruptive. Sometimes there isn’t a perfect solution.</p>

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<p>to the OP</p>

<p>I do not have any amazing suggestions … I just wanted to give you some cyber support. Dealing with a similar situation has been the most physically tiring and mentally taxing situation I have ever dealt with. My family was “lucky” that the beyond the breaking point period was only about 6 months long before my Mom’s deteriating condition forced a reasonable resolution … it was an incredibly draining 6 months. And as you experienced it was incredibly stressful on my relationship with both my parents and my sister … all I can suggest is talk to your Dad and brother openly and ALOT (my sister and I are probably closer now than ever) For my Dad he was not ready to move my Mom into assisted living until my sister and I told him we could not continue the support we were providing him indefinately; that is was too big a drain on our nuclear families. We also had to have some pretty open discussions on insurance and assets to understand our options. My sister and I did all the investigation and all the initial visits … this had two bennies … it minimized the time my Dad spent on options and he only saw good options (no drooling nursing home residents and seeing assisted living centers that were much much nicer than anything he (or we) expected) … and two, it gave my Dad time to adjust and except the inevitable … for example, my sister and I went to my Dad and said we could not continue to provide as much support as we were currently for the long term so lets start checking out options. (My parents did not want people in their home so my Mom first went to adult day care for part of the day … then added some in-home support … and then transitioned to assisted loving … and, btw, both my Mom and Dad are very happy with the assisted living; a solution they resisted for about a year).</p>

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<p>Momma three - Knowledge is power, so now you can have that conversation with your brother. Why not ask for copies of accounts ect? You have a right to this information.
I realize the sensitivity needed to have this conversation, but knowing the answers will help you navigate it all. </p>

<p>The big picture is that your father has enough funds that you can hire assistants, which YOU deserve!!!</p>

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<p>mom-three: I am in a very similar situation, in terms of helping a parent, but not in terms of financial burdens. My 93 yo mom lives with us. She’s been here for two years, ever since her DH died and she had to move east. She started at my brother’s house, but my SIL would not play host to my mom. She figured, if she lived there, she’d have to create her own life. This upset my mom, who has all her marbles and loves lots of attention. She just loves to sit and “chat”, mostly politics or current affairs, or food or fashion.</p>

<p>I’m one of seven kids, and we’re all in various stages of life, from retired to kids in colleges, to kids in pre-school. When she got sick, and in the hospital, I spent the same hours as you’re keeping: at least two hours in the morning and another two in the evening. She was miserable in the hospital and even worse in the nursing home for recovery. It was totally clear this was not where she wanted to be for one extra minute. Then she moved in with us: three teenage boys and an older daughter. </p>

<p>Over the years, I was getting really annoyed and tired that my family just assumed I’d put my life on hold while mom lived here. And I was not thrilled that I’d have to pay out $$$ for her day-to-day expenses. My brother, who knew how I was feeling, helped with the details. For one, he’s sent out an email to all my sibs about sharing the burden. He’s created a calendar of who takes over each month. And because it’s a financial arrangement, he’s in charge of paying her bills, including her daily care.</p>

<p>These responsibilities absolutely need to be shared. If not, you will resent your family members. But, to be fair, I needed to learn to speak up. It was too easy for my sibs to avoid their part in mom’s care. My brother stepped up because he knows she’s not easy and wanted to lighten the load for me. You need to do that too.</p>

<p>Now when my mom goes to visit my brother, he hires a companion to keep her company. Why didn’t I think of that? I’m still learning.</p>

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<p>And about your brother: I urge you to have a conversation with him about the financial situation. But don’t do this alone. It will be him against you. Instead, bring a spouse, a friend, a lawyer, but bring it all out on the table in terms of the financial picture. You should do this anyway, to plan for the eventuality and taxes. You are entitled!</p>

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<p>M-3: While there are valid reasons for funds being held jointly by one of the children, there are NO valid reasons for hiding this information from the other children. I’m sorry but it sounds like pure selfishness all the way around. Your father wants the “personal touch” of you providing unpaid labor, and your brother is trying to preserve his inheritance. In both cases, you are being used.</p>

<p>Give your dad notice; maybe a couple of weeks or a month. Tell him that after that date, you willl no longer be providing caregiving services. It’s up to him and your brother to figure out what to do, and there are plenty of options. You need to get away from this unhealthy and parasitic situation.</p>

<p>And limabeans is right: Do not have ANY financial conversations with either of them outside the presence of a neutral third party. You obviously cannot depend on good faith here, and you need to protect yourself.</p>

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<p>I was ranting today and I thank all of you for listening. I am just tired but realistically not angry at my dad. He is old and most of his behavior I realize is the result of his age. I wish I could explain what my dad has meant to me. I was so lucky to have been raised by a man of quiet strength and constant curiousity. He made the world a magical place with his adventures to places that most people dream of at a time when people did not travel to these destinations. Just today I was looking at his world map in his office and there is not a country or continent that my father has not been. I did some traveling with him and my mom but the majority of the time they were on their own. When my dad climbed Everest when I was just a child I thought I had the only father in the world that did that. Imagine a man like that using a portable hospital urinal. It hurts to see the amazing man with such desire to live and experience become a lonely dependent and depressed person. I was looking at his pictures of his time in the antarctic and I cried that he needs me and my brother to care for him.</p>

<p>It must be so difficult to become old and dependent and it would seem horrible if he thought I didn’t want to care for him. I just could not live with myself if I thought I hurt him in anyway at this time of his life. I will have a discussion with my brother regarding how we will proceed but I will never let my dad think or feel that he is a burden, because he just won’t be here for long. I want his remaining time to be as loving as possible, and I just hope he understands that he needs more care than what I could provide. My son graduates from MIT this coming week and I know he inherited so much from my dad. I will be at my sons graduation knowing that my dad gave my kids his love and quiet strenght. My brother is a good man just like my dad so there must be a reason that he has not provided this information and I will ask him about it after the graduation. I know that he too just wants to do what will make my dad happy. I also know that he is so wealthy that whatever money my dad has is just a small fraction of his own wealth. He will do what is right because we were raised that way. I am just tired so I am annoyed at the circumstances but not with my dad. He was not perfect and he definitely had a selfish streak to him, but I can accept it because I know I can’t change it. I can change my end of the situation, and I will do it. This has been going on for over two years now, and as of the past six months it has escalated. Thankyou all for allowing me to vent, and also providing me with the incentive to look in that file box today. Now I can address this with facts and that was the missing piece of information that I needed. I always believed there was more money than I thought, and my dad must have kept it quiet in the event that he would need it one day. The day has arrived but I will still be a big part of my dads life. We are really all he has now…and that is so sad for him.</p>

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<p>He has you and your brother. He is very lucky.</p>