"For those of you saying tell them to look up common data sets. I just did. How again does this dispel anything? Looking at Princeton, it vaguely details 90% have a 30-36 on the ACT and 86% have a 3.74-4.00 GPA or higher.
So a parent with a kid who has a 31 ACT and 3.75 GPA is going to say why not roll the dice. Or a parent of a kid with a 29 ACT and 3.6 GPA is going to say, well, it seems 10-15% of the class has those numbers…maybe they’re full pay…maybe grandpa is old friends with a US Senator for a letter of rec, why not try?"
That’s one of the problems with Naviance. Naviance - like the CDS - only shows a few key metrics but omits some huge qualifiers. My son was thrilled to look at the Naviance for his school and get excited about how many students are admitted to Princeton; but when I had him dig a little deeper, 100% of them were recruited athletes or legacies. That puts a whole new light on the admissions possibilities for unhooked students from his school. Instead of having 2-3 per year admitted (which is a LOT considering the size of his school), for at least the last five years actually there have been Zero - zip - zilch - nada unhooked applicants admitted no matter how impressive their scores.
I’d never say a kid shouldn’t have reaches. But I never hesitate to speak up on the need for matches & safeties, and how much harder they can be to find.
I haven’t read all replies, but I am probably in the minority of people who believe you should say something. Here’s the problem in saying nothing: you know better. I personally would feel like a big jerk if I saw a kid devastated by no acceptances, or nowhere that’s affordable to go, or losing out on merit aid they desperately need, because they didn’t apply wisely. I don’t want to be the person thinking, “What a shame. Too bad, they might have had a better outcome if only I told them what I knew.” I couldn’t look them in the eye.
Of course, delivery is everything. I am a pretty frank person. I am a test prep tutor, and I occasionally encounter parents who are encouraging their children to apply to colleges they have virtually no chance of getting into. I do a few things: “Harvard, wow! Great school. It’s so hard to get in. What other schools is he considering?” Or, “Have you ever seen the common data set of a college? It’s very useful, you can get a much better idea of Johnny’s chances if you compare his grades and test scores to accepted students’ stats. There is also a lot of useful info about retention rates and Waitlists. You might want to have a look.” I might even show them a common data set for the school in question. Or I might say, “How exciting, I’ve heard Stanford has a beautiful campus. I know there are some other colleges with gorgeous campuses that are not quite as competitive as Stanford. It has the lowest acceptance rate in the country. Where else will he be applying? Has he seen any schools that are easier to get into, just in case?”
Maybe my situation is different because I’m working with their child anyway. I have never told a parent their child won’t get in. I’ve definitely told a few that they should consider adding a few more schools to their list, just in case.
It is true that you never know everything. The kid might be the grandchild of a trustee, or have some ethnic heritage you don’t know about (a kid in D1’s class had some Pacific Islander heritage that may have given an admissions boost, but not everyone at school was aware of it). So treading lightly is good — but I genuinely believe that everyone needs matches & safeties. One of my kids got in everyplace she applied. She was very happy at her final choice, but had no regrets about applying to a range of schools so she had a variety of academic & financial choices in the spring.
It is cruel to encourage (or push) a child to apply to schools they can’t get into (or that the parents can’t afford, although that isn’t the case here I am guessing). It is fine if they are also looking at realistic schools. But lots of parents have unrealistic expectations for where their kid is competitive for admission.
In D2’s class, there were 2 kids who applied to almost all highly ranked schools and one safety (at the insistence of the GC). Both were shut out from all but their safety, and that is where they attended. They would have benefitted a lot from adding some more matches to their lists. Both were very unhappy (and kind of embarrassed) by their results.
It isn’t “fun” if they don’t do the work of finding appropriate matches & safeties, and parents should help their kids embrace those. And it is just bragging and stupid to visit for “water cooler conversations” — plus, you might be embarrassed later if those folks remember your name dropping from before.
I’m jumping in without having read this entire thread, so forgive me if this is a rehash. I knew nothing with D1. We had no guidance at all and I really didn’t understand how much the landscape had changed. Schools that were safeties in my day were suddenly reaches for excellent students. Luckily my daughter stumbled on this site. It was a little overwhelming and I must say, a little overly negative. This place had D and I convinced she wouldn’t get in anywhere, ever. However, it did prompt us to dig a little deeper and add an excellent safety to our list. If we hadn’t randomly found this site, we might have made some mistakes. I see nothing wrong with gently suggesting that its important to have true safeties on the list.
@gallentjill@Lindagaf I see a big difference between you seeking information and advice (coming to CC with questions) & Lindagaf (in the test prep business) versus some family going on college visits with their son and they have not asked for anyone’s help. College admissions is stressful and competitive enough without some random parent lecturing another family on what colleges they shouldn’t visit and how their kid won’t get into certain colleges. None of our business. I have a feeling this particular family knows a lot more about the admission process that we are led to believe.
@socaldad2002 The thing is that I didn’t know we needed advice and information, because at that point, I didn’t know what I didn’t know. We stumbled upon this site. But our GC gave us no help whatsoever, didn’t give us any idea about whether our college list was appropriate and most importantly didn’t indicate that the stats you see for colleges when you simply google them are vastly different from the actual acceptance rates from our particular school. Not everyone is lucky enough to find this website.
I would probably say something anyway, regardless of my job, @socaldad2002 . In all likelihood, they haven’t asked for help because, as @gallentjill said, they don’t know what they don’t know. I’m a frank person, so no one who knows me would be surprised. Would I say it to a casual acquaintance, or a stranger? Of course not, but a good friend or family member, or someone you see regularly, absolutely. I’d be tactful. I guess I would be prepared for “shoot the messenger”, but I feel that’s preferable than having to deal with the alternative. And maybe they would be grateful, eventually.
The OP is talking about someone he/she knows reasonably well. Friends sometimes tell you things you don’t want to hear. OP could also consider having a casual conversation with the best friend, who might be inclined to do a little more research.
Wow, it’s interesting to see how strongly some people feel about minding your own business. I’m in the camp that I’d feel terrible if I didn’t say anything and the kid got slammed. Of course none of us know the full picture and it really is important to not judge at all. And I do think it’s really important to stay encouraging at all times. But when you talk to them next, I think it would be easy to add onto any conversation about those reach schools about how great it is that their kid is thinking about it, and that while you’re encouraging your kid to shoot for the stars, you’ve also decided to add a certain number of target schools and reaches because you’ve heard that the admissions landscape for the better schools has changed for the significantly harder, and you want your kid to have a good selection of choices come next Spring. I also like passing along some tools you found helpful like CC and some sites that use scatter grams, but mentioning that you have to be careful with the scatter grams because there’s a difference if your kid is hooked or not.
@brantly There are a group of parents not equipped to help their kids with college applications. But the occupation is irrelevant. It has triggered a whole line of nasty comments assuming that these parents are buying their way into the school, or have some big connections. Honestly, I know I would be less offended by someone engaging me in helpful conversation about the nuances and struggles of the college app process than I would be about learning that they had posted about me in a internet forum that resulted in a bunch of speculative judgments. I am not inferring that was the intent of your post, but it is the result And it is a bit discouraging.
I think there is a BIG difference between casually asking about their safety schools sometime when you’re chatting and already talking about college visits, etc with a family you are least reasonably close acquaintances with. And seeking out a family to give them info when most of the info you have about these college visits and the kid’s background is through their teenager and you’re making assumptions about their information level and about their kid. This is all theoretical at this point, I’m not necessarily referring to the OP’s situation directly.
I just visited some competitive colleges with kind of a blend in under the radar kid. I’d just be annoyed if someone called me out the blue to talk about safety schools. And my kid came home all blah blah blah Northwestern/UChicago rah rah rah to his friends. Never mind the visits on the same trip to the state school or the much more moderately competitive schools we saw.
31 can be a great baseline ACT score. My kid’s last ACT score was 31. He’s well aligned to get a minimum 33 and probably more like a 34/35 next month after a little pacing work with a tutor. . And some kids with 31 get into surprising reaches. Of course, everyone should have a safety.
I would simply say “Oh we just went through that! Wow is it hard to get into these schools nowadays! Let me know if I can help show you any tips or tricks!”
@intparent “Who said they were going to lecture? Or predict for sure that the kid won’t get in”
These are some of the phrases the OP used:
“No possible way he can be admitted”; “I can’t imagine what their thought process is”; “He is not even close to being competitive for xxxx…”; and “Every single one of those is out of his reach—by a lot.”
I could be wrong but the OP has some very strong opinions and has made up his mind already; and sharing his wisdom with these so called “friends” might not go over too well with this family?.
I would ask the other parents if they have ideas about safeties or matches for your son. If they continue the conversation, keep your concerns about your kid and ask for their thoughts.
I agree with @intparent that asking your kid talk to his friend could go sadly wrong. But I would make sure that your son knows about the importance of identifying matches and safeties for himself.
Kids are going to talk about college strategies anyway so it can’t hurt when Eric says to Cameron: “My dad is making me choose 4 matches and 3 safeties.” All the teenage eyes will roll, (as they do after any sentence that begins with “My mom/dad is making me…”), but chances are excellent that Cameron will go home and tell his parents that he absolutely has to have 4 matches and 3 safeties and nothing less will do.*
