How to "wake" girl's interest in math?

Parents Forum
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My son’s MathCounts team had several girls - at least 1/3 I’d guess. But I agree competition math isn’t everything. My kid was happy to do the AMC contests and qualified for AIME every year, but he never did the sort of prep that would have got him to the next level. By then his main interest was CS not Math and that’s fine. I think it’s fine to try out mathy stuff with an 8th grade daughter, as long as you are willing to pull back at anything that doesn’t stick. You might awaken a kid’s interest in math - or you might not. A kid might continue to be quite good at math, but never actually use it. Or might end up with a career like mine (architecture) which really doesn’t use anything more advanced than what I took in high school though structures courses theoretically used calculus. Or your kid might end up in a STEM field eventually.

I think the most important thing in high school is not to cut off career paths or schools by not taking enough math. But the bar is pretty low.

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@koshkas Your D does have an EC - ballet. Let her enjoy it, even if she is not destined to become Misty Copeland. And, ballet has a lot of physics and math in it, so maybe you can pique her interest in STEM by helping her discover how using math can help her increase her pirouettes, balance longer in penche, etc. BTW, dancers as a whole tend to do well in math and science.

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Oh, @tutumom2001, we are quite aware of that EC!

It’s the major reason why there is no math circles or science olympiad or whatever else for her. You are right mentioning physics in ballet (and no, there is no math in ballet besides basic counting), but I am afraid we are well past that point. She can give lectures on that topic as well as anatomy, physiology, music, French (she does take French, though), first aid, time management and countless other things. Ballet IS useful and great EC for anyone and that’s why we still go along with it despite very uncomfortable time constraints (and I don’t even mention the $$$ :frowning: )

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You have got it backwards.

If she likes to read, then feed that fire. The New Yorker, Vanity Fair, The Economist, Wall Street Journal, NYT all have excellent coverage of current events, advances in medicine, the latest research on genetic testing, how curators are using new techniques to figure out which elements of a Michaelangelo fresco were actually painted by the master and which elements were added 100 years later, etc.

Math gets covered incidentally. It’s critical to understanding a lot of topics which your D is likely to find fascinating which is a side benefit. But the way to waken her interest in math is to get her interested in everything else.

In the last year I read an article on apple breeding in the New Yorker- which was fantastic, and a topic in which I have zero interest, and an article on why there are puddles on the streets of Miami (something else I’m not interested in but it’s a fascinating geological and climate problem). Atul Gawande writes about why medical costs are going down in some parts of the country, but going up in towns which are statistically similar to those where they’ve been able to control costs. He’s a fantastic writer. Jill Lepore is a historian and makes everything sing (recent column on the history of the electoral college- really absorbing and funny at times). The Wall Street Journal has some of the best cultural/critics writing today, and a young dancer will find their coverage of dance, theater, music, etc. absorbing.

Get her reading and you will solve your math problem. My kids (both genders) hated competition math but were avid readers and interested in the world-- and very good at math- and by college those interests collided.

They did do CTY in the summers- not just science but history, archeology, writing, etc. which also fueled the fire. Many CTY kids are passionate about math- and tons of other things as well. Nice peer group if you would consider sending her next summer…

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Honestly my parents would also get really flustered about the fact that I much preferred reading literature and historical nonfiction, and following current events to math competitions. Although I spent a lot of time doing science research in high school, my mind was always to future benefits of this knowledge more than the process itself. When I was much younger, I was super excited about learning algebra and calculus, but the interest dropped off in middle school.

However, due to the nature of the career I want, I ended up continuing my math education to some more upper level courses. Personally, I have only started finding math interesting as it gets more complicated and relevant to real life scenarios. Otherwise, it feels really contrived and just monotonous work. I felt the same about chemistry and even biology - upper level courses make everything a lot more interesting because you really understand what’s going on.

I would recommend having her continue up to a point where no doors are closed and perhaps introduce subjects or topics that she’s already interested in and how they utilize math. I don’t mean real life applications, but something like surface tension on cells, or how math can be used to model blood flow or something like that. Personally, I can’t ever imagine finding geometry or precalc by themselves thrilling, but the knowledge that the overall subject could be useful in solving amazing and important problems kept me open to it. I have a friend who came in wanting to do computer engineering -> physics -> applied math. I have another friend who wanted to do environmental bio. She took a required stats class and now she’s a CS-Stat major. As long as there’s a general interest or awareness that allows her to take some classes (and then decide for herself), I think there’s no issue.

I think you certainly might be able to do that by reading good publications that cover science or other subjects accurately. Even for something like the election, there are articles about polling and statistical sampling.

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That is nice, but we know already that the OP’s daughter does enjoy geometry by itself.

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I didn’t read the third page. That’s pretty incredible. I think, then, the outside resources suggested by other helpful posters seem like a good idea. I don’t really know a lot of people who did USAMO or other contests, but I know AoPs is good.

Otherwise, it might be relevant to find activities where she can explore her math skills in a broader context. I have a friend who also taught herself math from the internet, i.e. Khan academy before she learned it in school. She was really interested in the idea of integration and did a science fair project on the integration of a position function that went surprisingly well. Obviously that’s more involved, but even 8th graders can look for questions they have in a particular topic and try to resolve them. It can be as simple or as challenging as the student wants.

I think it’s lovely that you are trying to help her but 8th grade is quite early for someone to decide their feelings about something and she is seemingly chugging along. Maybe just suggesting the option and saying you’d be supportive is sufficient. I was on the mathcounts team in middle school because of parental ‘nudging’ and I didn’t like it at all. I did math team in HS for similar reason and dropped it after one or two meets.

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Thanks everyone for support!

@blossom, I really like your idea about magazines - everyone in the family will appreciate something to dip their noses into at the table besides Time and National Geographic :slight_smile:

I guess you all are right and she is just too young to go deeply into something and is really just “chugging along”. I think here we got messed up with our oldest who always was Mr. Enthusiasm and excitement was the only way to get him to do something. With D it’s the opposite - she will happily do almost anything above and beyond but without any enthusiasm. It seems that she just must grow into being interested in something just like her brother had to grow into doing his regular work well. We’ll see…

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@koshkas I don’t think you are wrong. I think it just takes realizing our kids are individuals. Some of my kids did know exactly what they wanted to do in 8th grade (or even earlier) and adults are doing exactly that. But then we had one who resembled a ping pong ball and we never knew what direction she was going to think of trying of next.

I do not think offering opportunities is ever a bad thing. Our expectations of those experiences just might not intersect with their reality. I do make my kids try things they don’t think they’ll like. Sort of like green eggs and ham, they don’t really know until they try. Compelling them to continue with something unnecessary, otoh, is different. I don’t think that is where you were going.

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" Compelling them to continue with something unnecessary" - it’s funny - I just thought of all that elementary school homework I made my kids go through! I wish we could homeschool them! OTOH it looks like they made it through just fine, though :slight_smile:

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Our biology major D, who is looking at grad school and a career in Forensics didn’t have a single STEM EC. She played soccer at a high level (still does, at the club level for her college) and was heavily involved with choir. Excelled in her humanities classes and was on the above average but not tippy top track for math and science.

And yet she’s excelling at a STEM focused school, loving her major and classes and finding her passion. She chose her school based on the program strength versus a school that would have recruited her for soccer and scholarship monies. Point being that having no academic ECs has little relation to finding a passion within a field that one has talent for. I personally would rather see a balance of activities than have it skewed all towards one direction, or all academic, I want to raise a whole person with multiple interests.

That said, one can be quite good at something be it a sport or an area of academics but if it is fundamentally of lesser interest for whatever reason, the natural talent may be irrelevant.

Simply because I could be good at something doesn’t mean I want to. I might be mediocre at something else but it gives me joy and the other boredom or worse, dread. When I can, I will always choose joy.

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I am one who wishes more math ECs commonly found in schools would expand beyond the timed competition focus. If I were a math person myself, I would try to develop one. There are plenty of people with intact brains who just don’t like competitions. There are others who can think deeply but not necessarily quickly, who could benefit… Or, just average people who could benefit, imagine that :slight_smile: My husband (who has a PhD. in chemistry and is no stranger to math) says that, when you think of a classic mathematician, you don’t envision a person who is quick with ready answers and tricks so much as a person who sits and thinks and thinks.

I have read about math clubs that have been successful with girls and some boys, that place more focus on math for its own intrinsic appeal, or applied math with a pro-social design or solving world problems focus. I would have liked that, and I think my daughter also could enjoy the latter.

I remember thinking (growing up) that math was too cold and unfeeling. I was good at understanding abstract concepts but got very nervous with computation and made mistakes, so no teachers knew what I was capable of. To correct the computation my speed was slow and I often couldn’t finish the tests in time. I often made Cs and worse, and the frustration had me hating math. In eighth grade I moved to a new school and was mistakenly place in an accelerated math class with more emphasis on concepts and process… I had an understanding teacher and …VOILA! …began making As. Go figure, the next year (after my previous school records arrived) I was placed back in the average class with a rote emphasis on correct answers and my interest and confidence plummeted again.

My daughter has always been competent at math but never really liked it. She TRULY hates timed math competitions. She was invited to join MathCounts after school, in fifth grade but didn’t because of that heavy competition focus. What we did not know was that, by seventh grade, the MathCounts kids would be streamlined into a separate, tippy-top classroom that affected all other scheduling except for band and PE. Most of her friends were in that classroom so she had a lonely year. Ironically, because of friendships with MathCounts girls (not the math itself) she wanted into that class! I’m happy to say, after working with her dad in math every night (which is more her speed than MathCounts ) she was able to move up to that classroom (without our requesting it) and is holding her own, though it is definitely a challenge. The other night she said "you know Mom, I still don’t "LIKE-like math…but every once in a while, when I’m working out things slowly, I kind of find it enjoyable. " Wow! One of life’s little victories…

I do wonder, though, how many kids who do not have a math-skilled parent could benefit from a more “user-friendly” math EC… And though the MathCounts group is a great, great thing for those who thrive in that atmosphere, the teacher of our local group does show preference for the most highly-ranked kids. Where does that leave the others, let alone the students not eligible for the club? If we want to promote STEM, especially among girls, we need some additional, more egalitarian ways to invite them in.

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A kid at my D’s schools started a programming club, with the goal of teaching students who didn’t know anything about it some basic coding skills. One of her other friends participated in FIRST Robotics at another high school for two years, then brought it back to her HS and started a program her junior year. Those are both STEM ECs, if not pure math.

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Let your D do any EC she wants to. They are for enjoyment, not furthering her future career/college applications… She needs to have fun.

I guess we were lucky our local area had locally derived math meets instead of following prescribed ones. Yes, they did offer the national tests but there was no prep et al.

Always remember your D is a child first. You cannot replace her childhood. Be sure it includes fun and no pressures to build a resume. One regret I will never have with our gifted son is his having the usual activities of childhood in addition to trying to meet his academic needs (computer tech is more advanced even just a few years later than it was for him in HS). My son did sports (running), music and academic EC’s like many of the other top students in his HS.

As your D grows and matures her interests will evolve. Let them. Do not try to push anything on her. Do not feel like you are making a sacrifice to let her enjoy things that have no discernable impact on her future. It is good to have fun doing useless things. Allow silliness. Let her find her own interests. Doing well at something does not mean being interested in it. There is life beyond STEM and we need all interests.