Income disparities & dorm decorating

Parents Forum
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Oh, right, the father worked for Ford and she drove the Pinto. Her father held a patent for some ball bearing that all the auto makers used. The funny story about her was her father couldn’t understand why the ‘parking’ went up every semester when she no longer lived on campus. The parking was for tickets! She parked wherever she wanted to and got a ton of tickets, never paid them, so they’d go on her tuition bill.

Just like Coach Prime, if you park in the wrong place on CU campus, you get a ticket.

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I understand this sentiment and probably would counsel my kid the same way. But at some level, this doesn’t really do anything except more contribute to the creation of a highly stratified society where nobody knows anyone who isn’t like them.

Sure, if you’re being mocked for having less, then no, those aren’t friends. Or if they are ONLY interested in things that involve money (which sounds pretty dull in any case.) But if your friends all like to go skiing together and can afford it, then they’re your friends doing something you don’t have the means for. It may be hard to maintain a friendship when you can’t do certain things together, but on campus, you can go to the gym together and grab coffee, or go to a hockey game.

We also need to encourage our kids to be creative in making those connections, both with classmates who have more and less. What’s the point of a diverse student body if we can’t connect?

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Seems like this is already commonly the case in neighborhoods that kids grow up in, and in neighborhoods that people eventually live in as they settle into jobs and careers.

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Some people do segregate themselves. But, plenty of people live in diverse cities/areas, attend school with a diverse student body, and/or work with diverse colleagues.

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Yes, of course. I was referring to actively being excluded from activities.

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Well yes, but this an intentional community and a chance to expand beyond where you grew up.

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Given that local politics commonly involves opposition to building new housing (especially affordable housing), it seems that higher SES people tend to want to segregate themselves away from lower SES people, because property values are the only values in many areas (and lower SES people are unlikely to have the money to choose to live outside of lower SES areas).

In terms of school, diversity usually does increase at upper levels of school, because primary schools are typically small ones that draw from small areas, secondary schools are somewhat larger and draw from larger areas, and colleges tend to draw from much larger areas. Hence, college is often a much more diverse experience than what the student saw in K-12.

In terms of work, it depends on whether one’s job means working mostly with people in similar types of jobs (which tends to result in more homogeneous SES co-workers) or with people in much more varying types of jobs across the SES range.

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I don’t disagree with any of what you are saying. I do think you may be underestimating the proportion of people in our society who are living in large cities that have high diversity (not just in income), as well as those living in (typically/often) close in suburbs that are also diverse.

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I think I’m having trouble understanding a lot of this thread because dorm decorating is the least concern of income disparity on campus.

S23 went to a boarding school (on the list of most expensive schools), so while we sacrificed to send him there, we are not hurting financially. For the two years that he had a roommate, one was from a family known for the wealth they’d accumulated, and the other was from a family with a name known in entertainment. While he was amazed at some of the privileges that came with that kind of wealth, he also saw how it shaped their view of the future. There was no way he could have kept up with the social scene of the uber wealthy, but he focused on academics, finding out who he really was, and what he wanted for his future (spoiler: after his exposure to great wealth, he did not pursue a high paying field). He now attends an OOS university where he is the one considered privileged because he will graduate without any debt, we pay all of his living expenses, and we bought his 2018 truck that he needed to access his job.
D22 attends an instate non-flagship where our family is definitely in the top 1% of earners. Most of her friends have families that can’t afford to contribute anything to tuition or living expenses, or sadly, don’t even have families. Her roommate lost her mother when she was a year old and her father recently passed away. Many of her friends are immigrants and/or come from single-parent homes. She plans on becoming an elementary teacher and attending a school with true economic diversity has shaped how she views educational policy.

It’s always amazed me that our kids don’t recognize the money we have (we live in a modest house, in a modest neighborhood, drive modest cars, and take modest vacations). My husband and I would always shoot amused looks to each other when the kids thought a nighbor was “rich” because they had a nice car or went on a fancy vacation while we knew they hadn’t saved a dime for their kids’ education. (My guess is that a lot of their kids had nicely decorated dorm rooms while the parents were drowning in debt trying to pay for school). I think because we have been savers, rather than spenders, our kids just haven’t realized the privileges of money until now. They are now seeing that money is security. It has dawned on them that while their friends are living day to day and have to think about every choice they make, they can make a mistake and recover from it. They have been able to make choices based on what they want to do in the future, rather than on what they need to do now. And they have been able to access opportunities that put them ahead of their peers who are just as bright and have just as much drive, but can’t afford the “entry fee” to the internship or opportunity (travel, a car, living expenses, giving up a higher paying part-time job, etc). Both of my kids work and would never dream of asking us for money beyond what we already give them. (We often want to buy them a dinner out or pay for something and we almost have to force them to use the credit cards we’ve given them). However,they understand the difference of their earned money going toward wants rather than needs.

Both of them look upon this excess of dorm decorating as “people are welcome to spend their money however they want to, but this is probably not a person that has an understanding of the real world”. Would they completely write them off? No. Perhaps it was all mom’s idea. Would they pre-judge them. For sure. Probably a lot more harshly than that person was prejudging their completely utilitarian dorm decorating. I feel like pulling in with staff and all the accouterments of a designer studio may endear you to a certain crowd, but certainly separates you from the majority. It makes a statement about why you are attending school and puts a big ol’ wall between you and people that are very likely to teach you “real world” lessons. While, hopefully, people see my kids’ hard work when they obtain internships and opportunities, my guess is the “designer” kids’ success in these areas (either truthfully or not) will be seen as based on influence and connections.

So, to get back to the original question, my advice to my kid would be

There are all kinds of people in this world. Observe and learn from them. Understand privilege. Separate out what someone has from who someone is. Learn what is important to you and what isn’t and try to shape your world accordingly. And, just like I told my kids not to peak in middle school or high school, don’t peak in college. College isn’t about who has the most friends, the most invites or the best decorated room, it’s about building the future you desire. And, some are lucky enough to see beyond appearances and use this time wisely to seek friends, opportunities, and experiences that support that.

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I have to admit I’ve been feeling very uncomfortable as I’ve read this thread and it has taken me time to figure out why I’ve felt uncomfortable. So many posters who I admire and respect have been sharing their thoughts, and I know everyone is posting in good faith.

I think it is pretty clear that many on CC are financial comfortable, if not comfortably wealthy (myself included). And the overall vibe on this thread seems (imo) to be “good intentions and good manners means not bragging about wealth, not talking about how to deal with those who have more wealth (bragging or not) and let the kids figure it out at college because college is about learning”.

As someone who is part of the financially comfortable (from growing up poor), I have a lifetime of experience in having made most financial mistakes out there, a keen sense of observation in figuring out the manners and mores of people in lots of different financial positions, and enough social graces to understand the spoken and unspoken rules that guide most interactions.

And yet, when I was at college as a poor student - I felt deeply uncomfortable navigating different social and monetary situations. My ability to do so (coming from a well educated family, even if there was no money) was in part already having some of those social graces because of my upbringing. I could swim “above my pay grade” socially…even as I struggled to figure out when I needed to suck it up and spend money I didn’t have to be able to fit in on the most basic levels (going out for coffee with friends, going to a matinee, hitting a bar and not sitting there nursing a water and no food for the nth time) and when I could not spend money while not feeling completely alone and isolated because of money.

When the message is “nice people with manners don’t talk about wealth disparity, or notice someone else’s differing economic resources” - it doesn’t help those students who didn’t grow up with the social niceties or economic resources figure them out, it just leaves them opaque and easily misunderstood.

We have so many intelligent, empathetic posters here and I guess I wish this thread had more insights about how a student who might be navigating from a position of not understanding how much money is out there, and how easily it is spent (in “good ways” or “flashy/‘bad’ ways”) could better understand what that kind of money looks like, and what strategies others have used to maintain friendships with those with more money, how those with money might talk about money, etc.

One thing I noticed as a poor college student was how many of my friends would say, “I don’t have money to do (insert x)” and I thought at first that we were speaking the same language. It took a couple of years for me to understand that many of those friends really meant, “I don’t want to spend my money on that, even though I have plenty in savings”, not “I have $4.93 in my bank account, don’t get paid until Friday and the ATM only gives money out in $5 denomination.” (which is what I meant when I said I had no money).

As someone who now has a comfortable amount of money, I have no problem saying, “Wow, that is super expensive - it is outside my budget” and I never think anyone is going to judge my net worth or value based on that statement. But when I had no money, I didn’t feel at all comfortable saying that when all my friends seemed to have no worry or care at all about spending $10-20 for lunch or dinner. Nor did I feel comfortable asking any of them how they seemed to be able to afford most/all things, I seriously just thought everyone else must be able to budget their own low amounts of money so much better than I could.

My children grew up listening to DH and I talk about money (budgeting, spending, investing, all those mistakes I made when I had no money and how those mistakes were often the best decision available) over the dinner table, in addition to lots of other subjects. As soon as my kids could write their names, we took them to the bank and opened up junior savings accounts and hands on learning re: spending/saving/giving/investing began. Any the time my children went off to college, they had all retirement accounts, brokerage accounts, as well as the basic checking/savings accounts.

They weren’t confused by how to fill out financial paperwork, or how to interact with bankers/financial institutions. They’d already had over a decade of experience each in steadily rising levels of knowledge (savings account, to CDs, to checking accounts, to Roth IRAs, to Brokerage accounts). They also learned (through observation and direct instruction) that while we had open, freewheeling conversations about how to invest and what our vacation budgets were…that when we had company - those weren’t considered ‘polite’ conversations. We might talk about taking vacations with friends and what those plans were…but how much was going to be spent was never part of those conversations.

So, by the time my kids went off to college - they knew a lot about how to interact in most situations…because DH and I spent their entire childhoods teaching them this stuff. We hadn’t left them to “learn how to deal with money/money situations” solo, even if they made most of their money decisions at college solo. They were approaching all of it from a lifetime of money and social lessons.

I apologize for this very long post. I hope it doesn’t sound like I am trying to chastise anyone…because as I wrote this out, I realize how much my children are most likely acting exactly the way most people on this thread have counseled. Being mannerly, not talking about money with acquaintances, and making their money decisions confidently and seemingly “solo”.

But this thread could be a great resource for those who don’t know about money. Who don’t know how to navigate money conversations gracefully. Who don’t know that it is totally fine to say, “I can’t afford that” and most other people won’t immediately assume they are poor, they will assume that statement means, “That’s not in my budget”.

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My husband comes from a family where his parents knew nothing about college, he applied for schools completely on his own, and worked his way through as a janitor. I don’t think he even know about the educational and social opportunities on campus because he was working whenever he wasn’t in class. I think my husband is amazed at what is available to our kids, as even though he went to college, he did it very differently than our kids. My experience was very different and my kids have heard both sides of the issue.

It is almost always my husband who leads any money discussions in our home. It’s not because of gender roles, but because of interests and skill set (He’s a CFO), which means that everthing my kids hear is coming from someone that didn’t start with any money, so I think they tune in a lot more and take it more seriously. They have actually offered their dad’s help to friends struggling with tax forms, applying for FAFSA, or just general banking issues when they’ve had no parents to turn to or parents that didn’t understand the issues themselves. I don’t think they’d be willing to do that if he hadn’t come from the background he did as it would look a bit tone deaf.

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These are really good points. As someone who like you was raise in what I call “genteel poverty” I am aware that it’s very different than real poverty. I couldn’t afford most things at college like eating out or having nice clothes or going home every break but thanks to my grandparents I could afford college. I couldn’t afford to go out to eat but I was never in danger of not having enough to eat as I was given a meal plan. The education and background I had put name in a different easier place than people who didn’t have that experience.

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However, diverse cities can be highly segregated by neighborhood. For example, do high SES people living in Chicago ever go into the low SES areas of Chicago?

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Over the top dorm decorating was not a thing at either school my kids attended. As for wealth and income, I’d say most of my kid’s friends in college came from families of similar financial backgrounds but they also had some friends who came from families with less money. Money never seemed to be an issue at college with our kids.

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Of course. But I do agree that some people don’t mix with people who are ‘different’ from them, regardless their SES status, or race, or religion, etc.

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This! Over and over.

While where our kids grew up was a nice neighborhood, etc., they heard about the difference between DHs growing up and mine which were radically different in terms of money. They also knew that giving back to a community was very important and we did so with them even when they were very young.

Did they have a huge circle of friends from very different socioeconomic backgrounds…no. Did they understand that they were very fortunate themselves…yes.

Did they ever care about or discuss finances as a basis for friendship…I can’t say for sure, but I would guess not.

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I had similar experiences in college. Some very wealthy friends who paid for me to come on trips with them because they knew there is no way I could afford to go and they very much wanted me to come and could afford to pay for me without even thinking about it. Ski trips, Martha’s Vineyard, etc. Some things they wanted to do on a day to day basis I had to skip for budget reasons, but overall, they tried to do things so I could be included. I am still close friends with one of them to this day some three decades later.

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For D26, if this issue were to arise, I suspect she’d be able to easily navigate it on her own. She goes to an expensive and highly regarded private school where roughly a quarter of the students receive financial aid and some of the other students are incredibly wealthy. Her circle of friends in HS include everything from friends whose family live in a very modest apartment, to extremely wealthy families with multiple homes and whose main home could fit at least 4 of ours inside. She already navigates differing budgets with friends, so I think this issue would just be an extension of that. She understands that some folks have more and some of them want to show it in different ways, and doesn’t get bothered by it.

What I think may actually be a more interesting challenge for D26, is for at least one school she is very interested in, she would be one the very wealthy side of the spectrum. I have little doubt she’d handle being inclusive with friends who have less well. But, I think it would be an eye opening experience for her to experience just how wealthy we are compared to the average American or even college student. She has been around such a disproportionate percentage of wealthy folks her whole life, I think it is hard for her to genuinely appreciate how wealthy we are relative to most people (she intellectually knows it, but I’m not convinced she genuinely understands). She has gone to expensive private schools for basically all of her schooling. Of course, for some of the schools she’s interested in, the demographics will not be dramatically different from her high school with significant uber-wealthy populations.

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This is our situation exactly. We are very comfortably wealthy, and we live in an affluent area. But it’s all perspective. My girls have attended a private school since kindergarten where I’d say we fall into the middle of the pack – many of their friends have lake houses and beach houses and go to Europe every year and spend spring break sailing in the Caribbean, and the kids think nothing of asking their parents for G Wagons for their 16th birthdays.

There are also plenty students who don’t have/do any of that.

We fall in the middle – we own a nice home with a pool, but no vacation homes. We drive inexpensive cars and keep them for 15 years or until they die. Our kids did get new cars for their 16th birthdays, but they were modest $25K Hyundai and Kia models. We do try to take a nice vacation every other year but alternate it with something reasonable.

And, we’ve tried to teach the kids how very privileged they are. Neither DH nor I have any money “baggage” from growing up – we both grew up relatively middle class without any real worry about money. I had a merit scholarship for college, but my parents paid for everything else I needed. My husband’s parents paid for his college – he did work a job on campus, but mostly for extra beer and pizza money.

My husband is really frugal, and I am more the spender, so it’s been interesting seeing our kids’ personalities develop. Our oldest is also very frugal, takes after her dad. Our younger two are more like me, lol. Our younger girl is into lots of different creative hobbies (crochet, sewing, cosplay) – and she thinks nothing of going to the craft store and buying yarn and supplies and whatever she likes, and then stopping and treating herself to a boba. My oldest would have never done that in high school without asking first. My son is somewhere in between.

Anyhow. My D22 is at a school where over-the-top dorm decorating is not at all part of the culture, and they don’t have sororities, so none of that is an issue. Still, there is definitely income disparity in her close circle of friends. She is full pay, and she really doesn’t know who is or isn’t there on scholarship (it doesn’t come up) – but it does become apparent when planning activities.

For instance, a couple years ago there was a show on Broadway she was dying to see, so for Christmas she asked for tickets to said show, plus plane tickets/hotel. We were able to do that for her without thinking too much about it. She asked around her friend group to see who would be interested in joining her – and only one friend was able to make it happen.

Same thing this weekend – she is flying to L.A. to see a show (on her own dime from money she’s saved from working as a TA for most semesters in school), and four friends are flying out with her. There are several others in the group for whom it was just not possible.

D22 understands that, and she talked to me about how she worded the request in the group thread – she asked something about who was able to make the logistics work, because most kids have summer internships or research or classes or jobs, so if they say they can’t make it, it’s assumed they have prior schedule obligations and not necessarily a lack of funds. Or at least, she said she tried to make it seem that way.

It is definitely different approaching the parental advice when you’re coming at it having never struggled with money, and with kids who are ridiculously privileged. I think I’m always hoping that we’ve taught them enough that they will be aware of income disparity and not act like jerks.

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This. Very much this. This is my goal.

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