<p>I am not trying to argue it is an inappropriate question in all circumstances. What is inappropriate is asking it during roll call, in a class room. It is inappropriate because it upset some students and creates a less inclusive classroom environment. Sweetcupcake and Niquii have both described how it feels to be questioned in this way. In a classroom, students should be treated the same as much as is possible. A few students (or one student in sweetcupcake’s math class) aren’t being treated the same. That is why the question is inappropriate in this circumstance.</p>
<p>This is completely irrelevant to the OP, but I am a research assistant on a project right now going through medical records from 1910s-1940s. The races through the 30s at least are as follows: White, Negro, Yellow (or Oriental), and Mexican-Indian. This is in several different states over several years… never is “Irish” considered a race. </p>
<p>My dad (Irish/Jewish) and his dad (Irish) were always white.</p>
<p>Yes there was discrimination (mainly in NYC/Boston) but in the “real world” they were white. </p>
<p>Now please, cobrat, can you possibly stick to talking about the sub and the OP’s situation? He/she has nothing to do with the Irish pre-70s.</p>
<p>Because it’s irrelevant to teaching. And it singles out kids who are deemed to be “foreign.” Suppose the sub asked members of the football team, but no one else, or girls, but not boys, these questions about ethnicity, or some other personal questions. I’d still think it was inappropriate. It’s not racist to ask football players and no one else about their ethnicity, but it’s bad teaching. Teachers shouldn’t be singling out groups like that.</p>
<p>I understand your point of view, as it seems to have remained unchanged throughout the thread. It is a subjective one; i.e., anything said that upsets any student and makes them feel they are being treated differently is inappropriate. That is a very tough standard for teachers to comply with at all times. Probably impossible, actually.</p>
<p>Whether what occurs is actually “uniform” will be a subjective determination. And whether uniformity at all times is good teaching practice is also a subjective opinion.</p>
<p>And you’re making the same mistake as Bay did by assuming how was was racially/ethnically classified in government or other records corresponded with how they were actually perceived racially/ethnically and treated in their day-to-day lives. </p>
<p>This has been a sore point among many citizen groups, social scientists, and demographers as such classifications, if not examined critically with other pieces of evidence and in light of the historical context of the period, can cause the unwary to be misled. </p>
<p>Just because one is classified as “White” according to Fed or other records, doesn’t necessarily mean they were all regarded and treated as such. In fact, taking such data at face value without further corroborative evidence, accounting for context of that historical period, and critically analyzing them could easily cause the unwary to be led astray regarding one’s conclusions. </p>
<p>Bay’s use of a definition based on such an “authoritative source” stated earlier wasn’t authoritative then and it obviously still isn’t authoritative today in light of recent news reports and my experience collecting source data for the Fed.</p>
<p>Is it remotely possible good manners could make this an inappropriate question, during roll call, if the question makes some students uncomfortable. If the purpose of good manners is to put others at their ease?</p>
<p>ETA: I don’t know if that is the dictionary definition of good manners. That is just what I was taught as a child.</p>
<p>ETA x 2: Obviously I struggle with the lesson.</p>
<p>If a question is not bad manners on its face and is asked with good intentions, then I would say no, it is not inappropriate just because some people reacted negatively in response to it. This is where the follow up discussion would have been very helpful.</p>
<p>alh-
Do you think that the inquiry alone is inappropriate or the way it was worded? If, for example, the sub said something like, “thats a beautiful name. Do you mind if I ask its origin?” would it have been less offensive? I am guessing you will say its less offensive, but still inappropriate. And I would understand. Especially if no one else was asked this question. Teens don’t like to be spotlighted in this manner, and the sub was insensitive, if not clueless.</p>
<p>okay Bay. Maybe someone else wants to discuss that with you. I still see the follow-up as irrelevant and a distraction from the OP. I thought the OP was narrow enough most posters might be able to agree. Once the discussion is enlarged, I don’t see how it is possible to have an agreement. If we want an agreement.</p>
<p>jym: yes. I still think it is inappropriate, although less inappropriate. There can be many ways of putting students “in the spotlight” as Niquii wrote, #204. I think all spotlights in the classroom are inappropriate. It would be interesting to discuss when “spotlights” are inappropriate in a larger society, but pointless if we don’t see them as inappropriate in the context of the OP. imho</p>
<p>cobrat, I was born in 1953. (I’m actually 3/8 Irish, technically.) My mother was born in 1923. (3/4 Irish, 1/4 Welsh) My grandmother was born in 1889 or thereabouts. (100% Irish)</p>
<p>NONE of us were every considered to be anything but “white.” </p>
<p>Not going to sign on to your exaggerations. We aren’t all in the business of claiming victimhood. </p>
<p>And BTW, I worked for the Census Bureau for several years on the 2010 Census and a number of other surveys thereafter. I know how the data is collected, and I know how people’s perceptions can differ. (I once ran into someone who INSISTED that “Greek” be listed as his “race.”)</p>
<p>I’d like to add that it is perfectly fine that OP felt uncomfortable about the questions. She has every right to react however she feels about it. But her particular feelings alone do not render the question inappropriate.</p>
<p>I can see how this could be true in many instances. However, I completely disagree that if someone is offended by something I’ve said, it *automatically *means I was in the wrong. It could very well be that I’ve been misunderstood or that someone is an angry individual who actually looks for the offense in any innocent comment. Some people are simply not happy unless they are unhappy. If I am living my life true to my principles and doing my best to be a good person, that’s the best I can do. I cannot be a slave to all the opinions of other people. There are simply cases where no matter what you say, SOMEONE will be unhappy. In that case, they just need to be unhappy and I do not need to agonize over their unhappiness. </p>
<p>“That is a lovely name. What are the origins of that name?” Quite honestly, if someone takes offense to that, they are flat just looking to be offended. That is someone who will constantly be in a state of agitation, finding ill will at every corner. There is such a thing as being too sensitive. Intent should absolutely be considered before deciding to go off on someone for something they’ve said. The feelings of the offended one are NOT the only valid feelings. All relationships are a two way street.</p>
<p>It isn’t about claiming victimhood…but bringing up historical phenomenon which has been covered by American History and Studies scholars, documentary evidence, and biographical accounts. </p>
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<p>When I did the 2000 census, I’ve had several bi/multi-racial individuals in which some racial/ethnic classifications they selected wouldn’t have been apparent by physical appearances. I’ve also had folks classifying themselves as “Klingons”, “Orcs”, Martians, etc. </p>
<p>No matter, I just put them down exactly as how they wanted to be classified per Census policy, thanked them for their time, and moved on to the next apartment, house, or building.</p>