My son is debating between 4 schools for pre-med. He will likely major in Biochem and molecular biology and is interested global public health and eventually in an MD or possibly an MD-PhD. He is interested in having good access to research and clinical internships (by good access I mean experience over several years rather than one off shadowing) and opportunities for medical service and travel abroad. He has narrowed down his options to UVA (65k/year), Wake Forest (70k/year), UMiami (45k/year; Florida, not OH) and Clemson (28k/year). For the first two options he would just be a regular student, at UM he is in a program that mentors kids specifically for medical school by providing clinical and mentoring opportunities and has options for early entry to the Miller Med School. At Clemson he is in the honors college which has separate housing, additional mentoring and early access to research through a program called Eureka. Honors students may also be favored for other special programs and opportunities. He loves the traditional campuses with green space at UVA, Wake and Clemson. Loves the prestige of UVA but worries about the size and competition for resources and special programs. Loves the size of Wake and the ability to interact with faculty in a small personal environment with no TA’s. Loves the research opportunities at Clemson (and the cost) abut worries about the poor pre-med advising and difficult access to clinical opportunities. Finally, the UM campus is not what he thought of for college but he loves the warm weather and it is beautiful. He medical program here is a big attraction but party school reputation is not. He has no desire to go clubbing in Miami. If he could take the clinical portion of Miami, the research component of Clemson, the small faculty centered environment of Wake and the prestige and campus of UVA he’d be happy. Since he can’t - what are your thoughts.
Did he visit all of them on an accepted students day and get a sense of where he might be happiest? If he changes his mind about med school, would it be easier to switch majors at some schools?
My understanding is that prestige will not matter in med school acceptances, especially among the schools you mentioned, since they are all relatively well known. What will matter is his GPA, MCAT, research and internship experience.
I would suggest doing some research, if you haven’t already, on UVA premed advising compared to the other schools. Current student told us that the premed advisors were not particularly helpful with students until their junior year. This was just one student’s perspective but it wasn’t the answer we were hoping for.
At Wake, see if you can find out how prevalent grade deflation is, since they’re known for that and a high GPA is important.
To me, Miami sounds like a great opportunity but he has to be happy there too.
No school is perfect but they all seem like great options!
You may want to post this in the general forum instead of the UVA thread so that you can get input on the other schools as well.
It sounds like Wake is the best fit - can you afford the costs? Will have work to help pay some costs?
He visited all at least once, but not on an accepted students day - unfortunately he was out of the country most of April. I agree prestige should not matter for med schools as long as your MCAT score is good there is no reason to question the rigor of your GPA. I think he likes Wake and UVA but feels he will be successful and happy at any of them. So the questions is really what about UVA (or Wake) would be worth 100 to 180k more than the other 2 schools. Hearing that the premed advisors were not particularly helpful until the junior year is disheartening as its too late to fix much at that point.
We can likely pay for the 4 undergrad years at Wake or UVA but we would not have much if anything left to help with med school costs. The budget would also be limited and that may impact the college experience. Many extracurricular enrichment activities, such as study abroad, can cost extra. Work is a good idea if possible but often clinical and research experiences are done on a volunteer basis and make work in the summers difficult.
Do you think Wake is the best fit because of access to professors at a smaller school or are there other reasons?
Hello, I’m weighing in as a mom of a current UM freshman. My son is not in the premed track, but his premed friends are all happy with their education and clinical opportunities. UM is not the party school it used to be, and I would bet that Clemson beats it in that respect. No one will force your son to go clubbing in Miami, and the drinking age is strictly enforced around town. The dorms also have substance free floors to ensure that your child never has to be bothered by any hall parties that might arise. The undergrad population is aprox 10K, and they do not use TAs as instructors. If your only reservations for UM are party school rep/Miami clubbing, then you should put those concerns aside. UM looks and feels like a tropical resort, the kids are happy (must be vitamin D overload from all the sun), there are lots of internships available close by and in Miami, and exciting things are always happening on campus (well know politicians drop by, rap stars making music videos on campus, famous alumni having meet and greets, national football coverage, etc.). The dorm rooms are small and outdated, and my son gets tired of the dining hall food, but those are the only negatives I’ve heard so far. The old heads on CC have said numerous times that money matters, and only the tippy top colleges are worth going in debt over (and sometimes not even those if you are looking at grad school). UM is ranked around 44, has a 37% acceptance rate, and they are working to get it even more competitive by offering super smart kids like yours great scholarships. There is also a facebook page for UM parents who would gladly answer any questions you may have about the pre-med program (there are a lot of those parents that frequent the fb page) or the school. And for what it’s worth, my son has friends at all of the colleges you are considering, and I promise you, there is partying going on at ALL of them.
I would have said Miami but it doesn’t sound like a good fit. Wake has prominent Greek Life but a more academically focused student body.
For whatever reason, UMiami students tend to be more superficial - perhaps the weather and the environment, or an egg/chicken situation.
Would your son consider Miami with a substance free dorm?
What activities do students engage in on Thurdays, Fridays, Saturdays? (This is a question he should also ask all colleges)
At Wake, professors are very accessible and classes are small. It’s like an honors college on its own. In addition, Wake is close enough to cities (compared to Clemson especially).
So, I’d say, Wake or Miami.
Medical schools get thousands of applicants from all over the country from hundreds of universities. There really is no “one” school that they prefer over another. It’s based on top grades and MCAT scores. Medical schools are also a beast when it comes to student loans. It pays to go cheaper with an undergraduate degree, so you can cut down the borrowing costs.
just curious why does he think clemson will have poor advising?
@Collegehelp4us He was told that by current and past Clemson pre-med students. The past students got into med school but there was not much support from the pre-med program itself. They seemed to indicate that they got more help from connections they made with individual professors. Both Wake and Miami have data bases and somewhat defined processes for accessing the things you need to do and seemingly strong mentorship. This makes sense as both are associated with a medical school where Clemson is not. The access to real research at Clemson is by far better than then any of the choices. UVA has disappointingly been a black box.
@coolguy40 I agree and we have told him if he feels that he will not succeed at the cheaper options then we will pay for the others. i just keep wondering if there is something at the higher ranked schools that we are missing that woudl sway the decision.
I can offer the perspective of someone that works for a medical school and routinely reviews the financial records of students. (Also of note I’ve got a daughter who is on a pre-health track, likely Pharmacy, that was accepted to UVA and Clemson Honors.)A few thoughts about medical school finances:
*This is one of the few graduate programs that we have that considers parents income. Students that didn’t qualify for financial aid as under graduates also don’t qualify for favorable federal or institutional loan terms in medical school. It is my understanding that our practice of considering parents income is relatively common among our peer institutions.
*It’s more expensive that you might think. It’s not uncommon for us to increase the cost of attendance for students in their later years to account for travel costs associated with their residency interviews and clinical experiences. Also, many students have to finance living expenses during their four years of medical school.
*Anecdotally I’ll add that many students whose parents covered the cost of undergraduate education seem not to have discussed how medical school costs will be covered. We repeatedly hear students wishing that they had reserved some tuition dollars for medical school, especially when they consider that the student in the seat next to them took a much less expensive pathway.
We share your admiration for a Virginia education, and recently attended the Days on the Lawn to try to bring some clarity to the decision. It’s a tough one. My daughter was leaning towards Virginia until we clarified that we could get her through UVA but could not assist with graduate school. Choosing Clemson would allow us to pick up approximately half of the graduate school costs. I should also add that my daughter had a few options that were less expensive than Clemson Honors but she dismissed those after investigating the honors and pre-health advising options at Clemson.
IMO, you make a BIG mistake by focusing primarily on the premed details. The vast majority of HS senior premeds never even apply to med school, much less get accepted and attend. Most cease to be premeds after freshman year of college, and many are done after one semester. And any of these schools will work fine for premed if your kid sticks with it.
So which school works best and is most appealing if you assume your kid will not be going pro as a doc?
Since finances aren’t a big issue, pick that school.
^ that is very true… odds are 75% he does not remain premed. In that case, what’s the best choice for him?
@RelocatedYankee Thank you for your perspective, I agree saving the ~90-160k is the best route and it is good to hear this reaffirmed. I think the choice between Clemson and Miami may depend on weather he wants to take advantage of the clinical opportunities and more medically focused campus.
@myos1634 @northwesty I agree that the drop out rate for premed is substantial. He has close to 500 hours working with physicians so I feel he knows what he wants to do with his life but anyone can find a new passion in college. If he decided not to go to medical school, I feel he would still be interested in human health related science topics and would probably choose research or public health.
For purposes of full disclosure I should add (as you can probably guess from my Avatar) that I also have a student who chose the elite but expensive route. That said she is a computer science major, and perceived name brand to be more important for initial employment. She also has a reasonable expectation that an employer might help with graduate school costs. I’ve yet to see an employer other than the military pick up medical or dental school costs. Any student in the health sciences field should spend undergraduate dollars wisely.
@cookies13 decision.
- You must keep cost in mind. $100,000 in loans will turn into $200,000 with interest and must be paid in post tax dollars.
- What is your home state and which med schools are feeders? If you live in CA, IL or between DC and Boston I would give more wt to UVA and WF. If you live in SC go Clem, or FL the edge goes to Miami.
- Look up the average GPA of biochem/molebio majors. AVOID any school where it is in the 3.0 range. Go to the school with grade inflation. Like it or not grade inflation works for students applying to grad schools. A 3.6 from Brown looks better than a 3.2 from JHU.
- Happy students make good students, where will he be happy?
- All should offer good research opportunities and pre-med advice is limited most everywhere, Both will require student initiative.
- Don't take chem, calc, and bio first semester freshman year. This combo turns pre-meds into business majors before Thanksgiving break. They need a semester to adjust to the rigor of college.
- UVA will likely have the most competition with the smartest students. So, higher likelihood of not surviving the weedout process BUT he will be better positioned to apply to med school if he survives.
Yes, the goal is to avoid the need for high interest rate PLUS and private loans, which also have high fees. In comparison, I just checked, and if a student today would take out the usual $20,000 of federal Stafford loans (total over 4 years), the total repayment with interest would be $24,815, which is reasonable. That involves payments over 10 years. The interest payments are deductible on the federal income tax of the graduate, even if they do not itemize. Federal loans can also be deferred while you are in graduate or professional school (taking at least a 50% course load).