If grading is competitive (“on a curve”), then the non-direct-admit students’ HS GPA distribution was presumably lower than the direct-admit students’ HS GPA distribution. To the extent that HS GPA predicts college grades, that can mean that non-direct-admit students have a tougher task to get high grades where there is competitive grading.
Of course, given IU admission taking HS weighted GPA at face value, direct-admit may not actually be that selective (easy to see how at many high schools, students with 3.3-3.5 unweighted HS GPA (or even less) could meet the direct-admit threshold of 3.8 weighted HS GPA). So non-direct-admit students from high schools with typical or heavy weighting might find that getting B+ or even B grades in college to be a difficult task. But those who missed direct admit because their high school did not weight or used very light weighting on their 3.6-3.7 unweighted GPA may have a better chance.
The % is highly dependent on how many try. There’s a bunch who get the first below B and stop 2d semester who still count, some who decide not to enter. Trend line is a problem for Kelley - getting toward a school built for max 10k to be 14k or so when this entering frosh class of 29 enters. This is both an immediate and urgent problem. I have every belief they intended this to be a class of 2030 standard, but they have to act and I know it stinks but having the B average - getting admitted - and not being able to register for classes or graduate timely is not a better option as unfair as this is.
Monte Carlo - The Monte Carlo is predicting the odds of a single person with the inputted grade having that grade among all courses but it ignores the outcome that the person with the B+ are probably getting the B+ across the board. And the professors teaching these classes know how important the B is so they and the students achieving may funnel toward a B as the most efficient outcome thus the big standard deviation to the B+. It doesn’t do you any good to get a B+ or an A - now there will be achievemnt and presumably grading toward a B+. Another reality of IU Kelley standard admit was the took away the big weed out Finite Math course and it has gotten easier to maintain that B average.
My daughter was DA and just finished her freshman year. So many SA kids in the first month or two last fall realized they weren’t gonna make the grades. Only a few stuck with it through both semesters. Lots changed their majors. So who really knows where they put those stats.
As a side note, an average is much easier to maintain than a B+ in every class. One class with a challenging professor and you are out. I’d have my child sign up for a 3.5 GPA in a heartbeat over a B+ in every class. Also, I do not believe is the case that so many standard admits “wash out” - we were told by a Kelley rep that this new policy is to prevent the inflow of SA into Kelley because too many are making it and their DA yield was higher than expected. They also knew this before May 1st.
If you set aside the this is unfair argument - which it is. Yes they knew before May 1, they’ve known for a few years. That’s an emoting argument but it just is, whatever validation you need, it is unfair. Kelley should have done this 3 years ago and the only defense they have is apps and yield have exploded over the last 3 years.
Kelley reps work for Kelley and they are going to give you the Kelley line. Kelley is all about auto-DA, it has been for a few years. They are doing this because Kelley is becoming impossible to attend for its auto-DA. It is oversubscribed right now by 3500-4k students and its getting worse. Yes they can and will increase the auto-DA stats. But the reality is - they don’t really care about SA students. They haven’t in awhile. And not understanding that before May 1 is not entirely a Kelley fault. It’s an option for kids and that’s great and a B+ in every class while not awesome is not unattainable in any stretch. The reality of getting in SA is going to only get harder. It’s not a population priority for IU - they would rather see you populate the University in other areas. Just truth.
I envision students checking sources and scrambling for profs who are thought to be easier graders.
This is why I give a ton of weight to having direct entry to a student’s major/school of choice. This change feels like a bait and switch for students who committed to IU hoping to get into Kelley. Not a good look for the school IMO.
To be fair … all the kids (DA and SA) are doing this. Everything in Kelley is competitive. Honors, clubs, etc. Classes (to my knowledge) are not graded on a curve and students are not competitive with one another in an unhealthy way* (at least what I’ve seen). But as in life, the opportunities are limited. There’s only so many seats in a workshop, for example. Applying to the Kelley honors program requires making a high GPA cut off, and then only 25% of the applicants will be admitted. Most of the kids there are gunning for something. For the most part, these are kids who did really well in high school and expect to do really well in college. So I don’t think there are a lot of kids that come in DA and then goof off and get a bunch of Bs.
*I’m so old that when I went to law school, everything was still in print in the library. Routinely the copy of whatever book/reference material was needed for an important project or final would be stolen from the law library, thus prohibiting all the other students from access to the information necessary. When I think of unhealthy competition, this is what I think of. I haven’t heard of anything like that going on at Indiana.
We’d take a Lab Practicum in Anatomy (1 full year = 6 Practiums and two finals) which would entail moving groups (5 student per groups from one Lab Specimen station to the next (Individual tests, just 5 students moved from station to station at a time) - each stations would have a specimen with 8-10 Specimen Pins with individual numbers place in it - and there would be 10-12 stations. These would take 2 1/2+ Hours to complete.
Two days later, we were told we’d have to repeat the first practicum because it became readily apparent that at some point “somebody” had started moving the pins from one spot to another over multiple stations - because the professor would go from having multiple groups in a row where the average was 1 error per student to 6 errors per student in a group and then all subsequent groups. They could determine which group it had happened with - but could not or would not ID the student (or perhaps students responsible) - so we ALL had to take it again.
Apparently this was a common phenomenon happening to every first year class during at least one of the various anatomy exams. Why the professors didn’t just come out initially to say - don’t do this - we know it happens and we can isolate it down to the group and perhaps the student or groups of students involved - and we’ll just set aside those results and make every take it over again. But for whatever reason they did not do this. I suspect it might have served as a class-wide demonstration for all to know - this is a competition and some of your classmates will not behave ethically.
I encourage anyone considering Kelley to visit and request to sit in on a class. It was an eye-opener for sure. We visited very late; just a couple weeks before May 1, and the experience took Indiana off the list for my son as a SA (no GPA printed on the transcript–otherwise he surpassed the criteria). Sitting in gives you an idea of how massive the classes are and you can talk to students about their experiences. In class, my kid got to see kids online shopping, playing games on their computers, and other modes of inattention while the professor lectured. It made him realize he truly wanted smaller classes and closer relationships with faculty. I agree that SA is NOT the way to go with Kelley, and even with DA, the huge classes, not getting classes you want, and hustling to get into clubs are a given. I know some kids will love / thrive on that but my kid decided it wasn’t for him, especially as a SA. To its credit, Kelley makes it easy to request to sit in; you just have to plan ahead of time.
With IU business direct admission HS weighted GPA minimum of 3.8, and based on taking it at face value from the transcript, that could mean that many direct admits had unweighted HS GPA in the 3.3-3.5 or lower range. Since college students tend to have lower GPAs in college than in high school, a B+ in every college course may be a difficult climb for a student who had an unweighted B+ average in high school.
While that makes sense in the abstract … it depends on the high school. A lot of the Kelley kids from Chicago/NJ/CA are coming from intense public high schools.
My experience is that kids from our (intense, large, public) high school found college no harder than high school (and that included kids going to Ivies, elite LACs, etc). Both my kids had higher GPAs in college than high school. And this seems true anecdotally from their friends also.
A lot of the premium people pay for business schools is for the access to clubs and the alumni network for internships/jobs. The curriculum is fairly standard. I remember a kid from michigan ross making this point and lamenting that his courses are not that different or more interesting than other business schools. I am guessing people are applying to Kelley in bigger numbers for the same reason.
I taught at another university this past fall. I had a class of 6 and caught kids shopping when they were supposed to be reading a research article with a partner and summarizing. So class size isn’t a guarantee for engagement.
Sorry, I disagree on the basis of contract law, implied or otherwise. Why maintain the SA program if it is subterfuge to enroll students in pre-Kelley to collect tuition while having no intention of admitting. If that is the case, they are nothing but a “Nigerian prince” phishing scam and the value of a degree from this institution will very soon be zero. Or less than. Ask Harvard how institutional misconduct is working out for them. I have 5% hope this is a misguided inexperienced Dean otherwise this program is the most unethical I have heard of any parent considering spending a dime there should run in the other direction.
You’re not enrolled in “pre-Kelley” - you are enrolled in Indiana University. Achieve the grade requirement - you are in Kelley.
You get to feel whatever emotions you wish or whatever legal contract theories you wish. I personally am going to bet on Kelley and Harvard being worth something in the near future but you never know. I empathize with everyone feeling bamboozled and maybe stressed. You can emote it and then it’s what’s next. All I can say on the Kelley side is they know this is massively unpopular and going to receive a lot of uproar so to do this means either 1) they really don’t care about you at all or 2) they really believe it is an urgent situation. Probably it’s some of both. As a business, which is what Kelley is, you don’t allow your business to operate poorly to alleviate hurt feelings and you live with the consequences.
The fact that they knew the change to B+ minimum was necessary prior to May 1 but did not notify accepted pre-business students of the change until after those students had committed to IU and declined other school speaks volumes. I empathize with those who were misled by Kelley’s bait and switch with admissions criteria. I think labeling understandably angry reactions to unethical conduct as “emoting” and “hurt feelings” is rather dismissive. Kelley deserves to be called out for running their business poorly for several years if things are already that bad & overcrowded there. They could have easily announced this change prior to May 1, but chose not to. Another poor decision that reveals either incompetence or a lack of ethics.
What’s the terminology for those students in their first year with respect to their path into Kelley - are they pre-business in Arts&Sciences, taking the same courses as the ADA and DA review students in Kelley? and their SA process with the criteria for guaranteed progression for being admitted in Kelley is part of that understanding when they are accepted into ‘pre-business’ whatever that terminology may be?
Any insight into possible changes to the ADA requirements out in August?
@beantownn Kelley is being called out - on all of these posts and deservingly so and you have every right to feel whatever you feel about any word choice or anything else. Run from the school, another bad decision, etc… All valid feelings and definitionally emoting but this isn’t trying to label anything, just trying to use the correct word choice. Kelley does not care what you or anyone else believes, that the reality I’m trying to get across. And maybe people will in droves stop applying as a consequence. I don’t know. But people generally are self-interested and if Kelley alums keep hiring Kelley alums people will still choose Kelley.
Why did they do this knowing the easier answer was wait until next May 1? Kelley doesn’t care about SA at all. This is about numbers but its mostly about rankings. The SA brings down their rankings is priority 1. Label that with whatever words you wish. What drives the Kelley engine is ranking and the SA world is only a drag on those rankings.
@Crapshooter You are University general as “pre-business.” The pre-business designation allows you to register for Kelley courses. You’re not in any school within the University. The biggest change to the ADA being considered is the weighted GPA. The 3.8 and SAT/ACT are aligned in what might be a typical score for those grades if those grades are not necessarily inflated. What Kelley does not want to do is recalculate the GPA that is presented as weighted to an apples:apples and spend money on admission staff.
Demand for Kelley undergrad has been shooting through the roof for years now, so this is definitely not a bait and switch type of thing. The value of the degree rests on a great academic rep, a successful, widespread, and loyal alumni network, and excellent corporate relationships that perpetuate strong job placement.
I also am not sure why this would be some sort of “contract law” type of topic. I doubt you signed or entered into a contract where the University guarantees a certain set of admission requirements. It is always a moving bogie unless you get the Direct Admit. That is a much more specific arrangement.
I say all of this as a person that sympathizes with kids who are suddenly staring at a higher bar for admission. My son is coming in from out-of-state as a Direct Admit and I do wonder if his decision making process would have been different had he had the pre-business conditions to satisfy. He probably would have taken the bird in hand from some of the other schools he was admitted to.
Bottom line to me is that if kids really want it, they will do the work and clear the bar. Nothing was guaranteed to them as part of the pre-business route.