Hey there. I’m currently debating between an offer from Université Paris Sorbonne and King’s College London. I’ve done a lot of research and I realize that the Sorbonne has lost a lot of prestige from the past 750 years. The name still brings amazing recognition abroad ( in the US where I am from ). I realize that King’s is far higher ranked and is more attractive for educated employers, but I was admitted to each school in different fields.
Kings for philosophy, and Paris Sorbonne for Musicology. I’m really interested in both subjects, and I’m keeping in mind that a European higher education degree is held to tremendous acclaim by musicians and musical academics here in the United States. I plan on pursuing academic careers if I enter either field.
I’m just particularly worried about the French system of higher education as I’ve heard… c’est de la merde. Though there’s no way I’d be in debt and I could walk out with an invaluable credential, I’ve read that the curriculum in French higher education is heavily test based, leading to extremely high dropouts. I realize here in the U.S dropout rates are high too but clearly it’s still cause for concern just by the numbers.
Can anyone with more experience with the French educational system give an opinion?
Thanks
How good is your French? I’d say that’s a key element in this question. Also, what level of degree program are you talking about? My son has also been accepted by Paris Sorbonne for art history. I think the French system expects you to do a great deal of independent study.
I’d go with King’s.
Musicologie is basically music education for students who couldn’t get into a conservatory and the drop out rate is enormous because it’s highly theoretical. To be fair, a lot of students in conservatory also register there for safety.
(for art history, l’école du Louvre is where it’s at).
As for prestige: at the L1 level, it’s like a very historical community college for kids with 3’s on their AP’s.
You’ll need to be highly proficient in French too although if you only have AP you could attend some summer courses. I assume you attended a lycée or something of the kind though ?
However, since tuition is free, you could 'firm’your place at King’s and ask for a gap year, attend Sorbonne for a year, taking a certificate or some kind of one-year diploma, then go to king’s. This way you’d have the prestige of the name, some fun for a year, get bilingual, and still benefit from the better facilities at King’s.
Top school for art history in France. Requires to be very self motivated since there are only end-of-the-year exams and those decide if you can stay on or must leave. No real campus but facilities are good by French standards. Most students are extremely accomplished both for art/art history (often did HIDA and/or Visual Arts for their bac) and overall, mostly girls.
HIDA is ‘history if the arts’, IE., art, music, photography, cinema, architecture. They have an exam where they have to write an essay about 'east/west Berlin’s or ‘the far away in Broke Back Mountain’ andduring the year must write a 10-20-page research paper with illustrations about an assigned topic for which they choose the supporting art piece.
Yes, when he took the exam my son said he was surrounded by hundreds of girls! What happens to those who don’t pass the exam at the end of the first year? Can they automatically transfer to a regular fac? Isn’t it too late in the year to apply anywhere else?
Unfortunately there aren’t any but there are possibilities in the Écoles Des Beaux Arts depending in creative track - photography Aries, BD Angoulême…
Supinfogame and Gobelin for video game art.
Universities for regular art history .
So for regular art history it would be back to the university of Paris, aka Sorbonne?
I read this on another forum: L’école du Louvre est toujours un plus! Mais il est vivement conseillé de suivre un cursus universitaire à coté: histoire, histoire de l’art, archéologie.
But how would a student at the Ecole du Louvre also have time to follow the L1 program in art history at Paris 1, for example? Wouldn’t it be extremely difficult to do both? Are you even allowed to register for both schools simultaneously?
And thanks again for all this advice. The French system is very difficult for foreigners to figure out.
Yes, lots of students register at both. One reason is that, with Ecole du Louvre + licence you can try for the CAPES (which is an exam that’ll allow you to teach, but involves NOTHING about teaching.) A downside is that there are very few CAPES spots in these subjects, so it’s not much better in terms of professional outcomes - not to mention you’re paid very little (apparently even a first year, law enforcement officer makes more than a teacher) and you’re sent wherever they want, so you could be living in Bordeaux and end up having to teach in Roubaix or La Courneuve.
My advice would be to look into the digital humanities, videogame schools (like Gobelins, etc), or prepare something CS-related if you can. Sciences-Po Paris has a special art-related program, too (I don’t know much about it).
In terms of time, well, students don’t attend all their classes, but yes you’re allowed to register for two programs and there are even special registration systems for that.
For students who made it through the lower level classes, the upper level classes can be complemented with “partners” in business schools for instance. http://www.ecoledulouvre.fr/enseignements/etre-eleve/partenariats/double-diplome http://www.ecoledulouvre.fr/enseignements/etre-eleve/partenariats/autres-partenariats
I’m completely fluent in French as my fifth language. I taught myself over the summer over a two month period before visiting la Sorbonne in August. I had to take a fluency examination in December (the DELF) to even have been eligible to apply, so it’s not as if I just applied assuming that it would all work out. It was a real serious decision for me to apply for French University and potentially turn down stellar universities in the UK and the US.
As for my choice of study subject, I’ve been attending the premier performing arts High School in northern California as a Music (Voice) major for the past four years, so I was able to pass the musical entrance examinations with ease. I realize it is a completely theoretical subject, but that’s why I love reading about it and love the prospect of entering the field. There is still so much in the academic scene of music that is still unknown, soon to be unearthed.
I also got an offer to inscribe into a double licence program in Musicology and Italian Literature and Language. Their double degree programs are usually closed for International students but they offered me a spot due to my capacities as a polyglot and strong musical training.
I just have realized at this point that name and brand only mean something correlative with the faculty and reputation of the faculty at such a given school. My director at school who is a musicologist herself (Doctorate in Music History) was absolutely amazed when I told her I was applying and was accepted. The reputation of European institutions, in particular la Sorbonne in the classical music world is extremely pristine.
I guess what scares me the most will be the structure of the educational system. Lots of stress placed on exams, and self studying outside of lectures. I can decide to jump headfirst into a university system and not to mention a culture I’m not fully acquainted with and fail hard. On the other hand I CAN also be jumpstarting my academic career with two bachelors degrees from a world class institution after just three years of life changing work.
I’m almost completely sure I’ve made up my mind to study at la Sorbonne, but I guess I was just looking to quelm some of my fears before committing…
Thanks for everyone’s responses!
The Sorbonne is basically a factory school (interestingly, called a FAC) - a massive organization with open admissions where many students just show up to take tests in order to get a qualification to do something specific to French society. There is very little opportunity for contact with Profs, no campus spirit, it is woefully funded and dilapidated, and recognition abroad is weak. However, the elite parallel system (Grandes Ecoles, which require stringent entrance exams) is extremely strong and I have no idea if there is musicology in any of them. I would not recommend the Sorbonne.
In contrast, King’s is well respected and known for quality. In the top 10 or 15 in the UK. The course is highly structured and you will get to know your peers. Imho, you would get a better education there.
I’d be extremely careful trying to translate a European university’s prestige into the undergraduate experience or even into the education you can expect. At a French university, you will be expected to educate and organize yourself. Period. They will offer the lectures, the library, the highly qualified faculty, but in what you make of it you’ll be completely on your own. In Paris, with Parisian students. How familiar are you with Parisians, with the French education system, with the differences between universites and grandes ecoles?
I understand that you have been to France and are fluent in French but If you expect to be part of an undergraduate community that has any similarity to your educational experiences in the US apart from the fact that people tend to be under 25 and call themselves students you will experience a major culture shock.
I’d imagine that going to a UK university will be enough of a culture shock in itself eve though there are more similarities to the US (more of a community, age range more similar, more geographic and cultural diversity).
Because that question has come up as well: a lot of students from the grandes ecoles (admission to which is extremely competitive) dual enrol at universites (admission to which is usually open enrolment for Bac holders) in order to gain a degree in subjects that, for historical reasons, aren’t taught at grandes ecoles, such as law, and manage to pass the universite exams while managing the course load at the grand ecoles. It doesn’t work the other way round. This tells you a lot about the differences in student bodies.
By the way, I am not a professional musician, but I was surprised that the prestige of music education in Europe is supposed to extend beyond conservatories to musicology degrees at universities. It has been my impression that among musicians, musicologist aren’t taken that seriously, just like a PP suggested.
Edited to add that I was a bit stumped with adding accents on my iPad, not that I don’t take French accents seriously…
You can go for a year and do the double ‘licence’ first year courses but know it’s really like attending community college in historical buildings (most of which aren’t up to safety code, think broken toilets and dangling electric wires). 60% fail their first year. Look up ‘Ma fac en ruines’ and ‘Ma fac va craquer’ for eloquent pictures. A couple years ago there was a column by a professor who’d taught in the US. She mentioned American oddities: you have to smile and be nice with students even if they’re undergraduates, you have to think of the way students will receive your lecture and if they’ll understand, you have to follow a document called a syllabus and be a slave to it.
Please ‘firm’ your place at King’s and ask to defer to take a gap year (or do that at any of the universities that admitted you.) There’s no risk with that plan: if you love the University of Paris you can just stay on, if you don’t (and, frankly, that’s basically everyone except exchange students who are there for a year and can pick/choose what they’re studying) you have a spot assured somewhere in the US/uk. In any case you’ll become bilingual and start on trilingualism with Italian.
If you truly are serious about music, you should register at the conservatoire national de paris, classes de voix, etc. There the classes are high level. Also, Normal Sup but you need special permission just to audit classes there.
Have you got a room in Cite internationale? If you don’t, you need to look for a room. DO NOT rent anything sight unseen and plan for a 600-700 euros budget per month to have a good shot. See if you can find a flatshare. The university’s unlikely to be able to help but do ask the international student office if they have ‘references de colocations etudiantes’. If you’re near a resto- u you’ll have access to a full meal for about 3.5euros.
@alcibiade, recognition of the Sorbonne name in the US is actually fairly high. Just below Oxbridge and LSE (maybe on par with St. Andrews and Imperial) but above everyone else, if you compare with UK unis. Of course, most Americans would know next to nothing about it. They’d just assume it’s one of France’s best because it is ancient and one of the few French institutions of higher learning that they have heard of.
