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<p>This varies a lot by how strong the students are (often associated with school selectivity, although for an individual student, the student’s personal characteristics are what is important).</p>
<p>Too late, but I would have suggested applying to Case Western or Lafayette as they have Liberal Arts and Engineering.</p>
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<p>This is a YMMV deal. One HS buddy with a passion for Chemistry did ChemE first and found he preferred pure Chem so he switched. A former supervisor started out as a Chemistry major and found he wanted to use it in an applied setting so he switched and graduated as a ChemE major. </p>
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<p>Interesting. </p>
<p>My observation from both among my extended family and many undergrads is that with the exceptions of elite undergrad b-school programs like Wharton or NYU-Stern or math heavy majors like accounting, the undergrad business major tends to be one of the default majors for the weakest and/or not academically inclined students. </p>
<p>And this phenomenon isn’t really new considering in my own extended family, those who weren’t academic inclined or intellectually dim were the ones counseled into undergrad b-school majors whereas the ones who were regarded as having some academic inclination would be encouraged into “more suitable” majors whether it’s pre-professional ones like engineering/CS or pre-med, other STEM fields, or humanities/social science fields like literature or philosophy. </p>
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<p>Indeed. My former ChemE major supervisor switched into computer programming just a few years after graduation in the early '80s after finding working as a ChemE didn’t suit him. </p>
<p>Then again, at various computer technology themed conventions…including Linuxworld before it became commercialized, CS programmers came from many fields…including arts & humanities fields. One 60-something programmer and early computer technology pioneer I met at Linuxworld was a Music and Literature major.</p>
<p>Several of you have suggested that it’s possible to get “the best of both worlds” by just double majoring in engineering and, I dunno, Religious Studies. I’m just not buying it.</p>
<p>Using Lafayette as an example:</p>
<p>ac**•aTotal required credits for B.S. in engineering (including math & science credits) = 26
ac•aTotal required credits for Religious Studies = 9
ac•**aTotal possible credits = 39</p>
<p>Even if a student comes in with 5 AP credits, that still doesn’t leave much wiggle room, especially if a student has a broader range of interests. And that tally does not take into account the freshman seminar and any other requirements that don’t fit into either major.</p>
<p>And, of course, fitting in all those required courses assumes that scheduling will never be a problem. Yeah, right. Like I said, I’m just not buying it. Also, the one thing about which almost everyone on this thread has agreed is that undergrad engineering is difficult. Add in additional requirements and scheduling issues and it just seems to me like it would be miserable. Manageable, perhaps, but not a whole lot of fun.</p>
<p>Engineering double major? Nope. You need all your time and attention for the technical classes.</p>
<p>The way you double major, and avoid the freshman / sophomore weeders, is to get an undergrad degree in your favorite science, and do a MS in a related area of engineering. That seems like a great idea actually, and you’re almost guaranteed to end up with a higher GPA.</p>
<p>I wouldn’t recommend double majoring in engineering and anything, unless it’s at a place like MIT where it’s relatively common AND where the core classes in both math/science and non math/science are so extensive that a kid is likely to find SOMETHING to love just by getting the institute requirements out of the way.</p>
<p>I know a lot of engineers. Some of them have deep interests and passions outside of their disciplines and some of them don’t, but double majoring doesn’t seem to be a factor either way.</p>
<p>It is easier to start in engineering and then move to econ or urban planning than vice versa. It is very hard to graduate with a degree in engineering if you don’t love it (or at least like it enough to work very hard at it.) It is extremely hard to start as an engineer and then try to transfer to an LAC because your grades are terrible and you hate engineering. It is very easy to fall in love with lots of different things at a big university.</p>
<p>I don’t think any of this is going to help the OP- but I agree with Dodgersmom on the double majoring bit. Not easy (and in some colleges not even possible while still getting out in four years.)</p>
<p>OP- I know you want to protect your son’s privacy, but knowing which colleges these are would make the discussion more fruitful. </p>
<p>There are a couple of LAC’s - they’re both wonderful. There are two, maybe three, engineering programs still in contention, but, as far as I’m concerned, as long as the degree requirements for the B.S. are the same, it really doesn’t matter whether the school is big, small, or somewhere in between. No matter what else the school offers, if the kid is overwhelmed with required math/science/engineering requirements, the rest of it just won’t make that much of a difference.</p>
<p>The kid (who has not yet realized that his life is now fodder for public discourse) just asked me the following question:</p>
<p>If it takes two years of grad school to get a masters in engineering, regardless of whether you’re starting out with a B.S. in engineering or a B.A. degree in something else, what’s the point of even getting the B.S. as an undergrad? In the long run, is there some advantage to having the B.S.?</p>
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<p>If the BS in engineering is ABET accredited, he can take the USPTO patent bar directly without getting a waiver from having a BS in engineering or a recognized STEM major should he decide to be a patent agent or lawyer. </p>
<p>However, the waiver isn’t hard to get as a law partner I worked with explained as he managed to get the waiver to be allowed to take that exam despite the fact he had a BA in Physics and an MS in Electrical Engineering. </p>
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<p>From my observations, the largest group of technical (design and development) people in the computer industry came from computer science or computer engineering educational backgrounds. But there are significant number of others coming from other educational backgrounds. Physics appears to be relatively common (but biology and chemistry are not). Those with humanities, arts, and social studies educational backgrounds also show up. Business majors appear to be absent, including CIS/MIS/IT majors (in design and development roles, as opposed to the computer management roles that their majors are aimed at). Other non-engineering pre-professional majors are likewise rare. Some self-educated people without bachelor’s degrees are also present.</p>
<p>If someone is going to college and has a career goal of doing software design and development, going to a school with a good CS department makes sense, since it makes sense to learn CS with the aid of instructors and computing facilities (even if one majors in something else, being able to take some CS courses gives a head start on future self-education). But those who have already graduated can, with sufficient motivation, self-educate CS more easily than most other technical fields.</p>
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<p>It may take more time to complete a master’s or doctoral degree in engineering if one had a non-engineering (or non-matching engineering) bachelor’s degree, due to having to take additional undergraduate engineering course work to “catch up”. Of course, how much that matters depends on which engineering major one is aiming for in graduate study and which major one does as an undergraduate. For example, a math or statistics major may not require as much “catch up” course work for graduate study in industrial engineering as a biology major would need.</p>
<p>Web sites of engineering graduate programs often list expectations of undergraduate preparation for new graduate students.</p>
<p>Also, note that graduate study is for going in-depth in a specific subarea of the major, rather than to get a working knowledge of the major subject that undergraduate study covers.</p>
<p>The other advantage of getting a bachelor’s degree in engineering is that you can work in engineering with a bachelor’s degree more easily. Granted, sometimes those in closely related liberal arts majors (e.g. physics, or math or statistics for industrial engineering) can work in engineering (unless a PE license is needed), but they may not be the first choice recruiting targets.</p>
<p>Dogersmom, the reason to get a masters in engineering to specialize in a certain subject. For instance my H has a bachelors in mechanical engineering. He wasn’t interested in a MBA so he decided on a M.S. He has a specialization in thermo sciences, thermo dynamics, fluids. So he took classes to learn more about those subjects. MechE is not a very specialized degree, they can do lots of different things. </p>
<p>I could go on and on about why people get M.S. For instance an electrical engineer would want to specialize in controls. You can specialize in certain types of soils or rocks. You could specialize in metal forming or certain types of metals. </p>
<p>There are millions of things that you don’t learn in undergrad which they have needs for. Since I am a non-technical person, I don’t even understand half of what you can do. The possibilities are endless. </p>
<p>I got off track there. At my D’s undergrad almost everyone she knew double majored or minors. Her roommates boyfriend minored in music. She knew other people who minored in history or business or Econ. Some people had more engineering specific minors like aerospace. It was really all over the place, depended some on how many AP credits but even my D who only came in with a couple of AP’s had time for a minor although she decided against it in the end. </p>
<p>I will say that I am pretty positive that engineers at Lafayette have no problems getting the classes they want and need. They do a great job and there will be spots for classes they need. My kids never had any trouble getting the classes they needed, there was always room and they were very accommodating. Neither went to Lafayette but I am somewhat familiar with Laf. </p>
<p>Neither did study abroad though, they didn’t have much interest and I will say that not many engineering majors we knew did. The summer after freshman year is the best time to go. </p>
<p>If you do a non-engineering undergrad, to be able to do an engineering master’s reasonably it’s very helpful to have had enough math. Physics is more than enough math. Bio and chem (except for physical chem) is not. But if you’re going from a BS in Chem to a MS in ChemEng and you have reasonable math aptitude I think it would be doable. You’d understand the processes better but have to catch up on math and design, doable within 2 years of grad school, or in a doctoral program.</p>
<p>You can come out of a doctoral program with just an MS. In fact if you fail the qualifying exam enough times (usually twice), that’s what will happen anyway. And the doctoral students get funded.</p>
<p>Okay, hang on a sec . . .</p>
<p>First, about doctoral students getting funded . . . a doctorate takes several years, right? So could one go part of the way through it, and bail after two years with just a masters? Seems like that would be unethical, but maybe it’s commonly done? Sorry, I really have no clue.</p>
<p>Second, about doing a double major in engineering and, well, anything . . . several of you have said, “no way, can’t be done! Engineering is too tough!” Meanwhile, others have said, “piece of cake! Why not do a double major?” Sorry, but my head is about to explode . . . which is it???</p>
<p>I’m not clear on whether you’ve said, op, but what kind of engineering are we talking about here? Has that been narrowed down at all? You’re cutting a pretty wide swatch at the moment.</p>
<p>Well, since DS isn’t overly fond of physics, we’re probably looking at chem. engineering. But that’s just a guess.</p>
<p>The double major is not easy and needs to be planned, but it is doable. My son is doing it in a subject he loves as much as the engineering. As I wrote to you, I would advocate the minor over a double major, but in the end, he is taking the courses he wants to take.</p>
<p>D2 is not too fond of physics either, despite the fact that she got A in high school but she is going for BS in Computer Science so she doesn’t have to take Physics.
I disagree with those who stated that people who didn’t do well in Physics in high school should not study engineering in college. I flunked out of Physics in high school and graduated with a degree in EE umpteen years ago. Math was my strong point, I did ok in Physics in college.
For study abroad, D2 decided not to do engineering and focus on humanities and language. Also, I think she will get her butt kicked studying engineering overseas(my hunch and because I’m also not sure how much study she will be doing, so I discouraged it). She decided on Summer study abroad instead of spending the whole year there because CS is hard and she needs all 4 years at her college and space the difficult courses out.</p>
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<p>Chem eng really has a lot of physics - thermo and fluids galore</p>
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There’s no problem with stopping at a Master’s. In my Physics program, students had to pass the qualifying exams at a certain level to continue to PhD vs getting a Master’s. Some students only managed a Master’s level pass and didn’t pursue retaking until they got a PhD level pass. No idea what would be unethical about it, but students make those decisions all the time.</p>