<p>I went through this last year…my son was contemplating the Bucknell/Lafayette engineering vs. the hard-core big uni engineering programs. In the end he chose the big uni. His reasoning was that the big uni offered more variety if he decided he wanted a soft engineering type major or if he wanted to completely switch majors - there was simply more variety to the engineering track at the big uni. It’s a tough decision - my head was with the Buckenll/Lafayette colleges probably because my older two went to small colleges and I also did my undergrad at an LAC, but #3 is thriving and surviving at his big uni in hard core engineering. I think he’s thinking no to the Masters right out of undergrad since there is so much employment opportunity right out of undergrad for engineering majors and he’s thinking he’d rather have his employer fund the masters or at least subsidize it. </p>
<p>One last thought - the big uni advisers told my son that he wouldn’t have time or energy to double major and might not have time to minor in a non-engineering program (for my son it was economics), but the Lafayette/Bucknell genre told him it wouldn’t be difficult…so that is something to consider. I can’t recall which college it was, but one of my son’s tour guides was an engineering/econ double major and while i was trailing at the back end of the tour with the other parents, my son reported that the tour guide told him it wasn’t a “big deal” to double major. </p>
<p>Sorry, still don’t understand the grad school funding . . .</p>
<p>Why is there funding for PhD programs, and not for masters? Especially if a lot of the PhD candidates are going to quit after their masters anyway . . .</p>
<p>There are advantages and disadvantages to both. Your son can thrive in both settings. It is not always that one program is better than another, but which one do I feel better in. It is nice when you have those options.</p>
<p>For many engineering disciplines, an undergrad BE is needed to become a PE. I went to a grad engineering program, but had to get an MS since I did not have a Bach Eng or I would have had to spend a year taking undergrad engineering courses. For me, it hasn’t mattered although I would probably have more job security better pay etc if I was a PE rather than just a scientist. </p>
<p>It really depends on the LAC and the engineering school. If it is a “tech” school that is mostly engineering, the humanities subjects may not be as strong. OTOH, a LAC without engineering will not give him the opportunity to explore engineering.</p>
<p>If you were willing to tell us the schools, you would get much better advice or at least some other info. Is the LAC very small? Is the engineering school at a Big U or a school like VA Tech or RIT that is mostly engineering? Is there a difference in “prestige” between the two?</p>
<p>Everyone in my family is an engineer except me and they all counseled my #3 to get the PE. And your are correct mom2and we saw some skimpy engineering programs and we saw some tech schools with skimpy humanities. If you have a kid who is uncertain whether engineering or not and can’t decide if they want the smaller LAC/engineering combo the field greatly narrows which can be a blessing in disguise. I looked east to west and north to south for a reputable LAC/engineering combo. Personally some of the smaller publics were interesting options.</p>
<p>I don’t know the details, but the law partner I worked with managed to get his PE with just a MS in EE through some waiver process. </p>
<p>Also, having a BS in engineering is only the prereq to taking the the two part PE exam. Many graduating engineering undergrads fail the first part…and many more end up failing the second part* or like a former supervisor…never attempt the second part due to career changes. </p>
<ul>
<li>Second part to PE exam is taken after several years of work experience in the given engineering field.<br></li>
</ul>
<p>Yes, but most from a reputable engineering program that bother to study will pass both the EIT and the PE. I think it is rare for a practicing engineer to fail the PE, if they make the effort to review. There are PE classes etc. I doubt that most adults that pass an accredited Eng curriculum are gong to fail. 4 years or 3 plus a masters is required for PE here.</p>
<p>In my state, there is a waiver that requires 15 years of engineering work. However, you have to be able to get a job as an engineer in the first place. May be easier for EE than other disciplines. </p>
<p>As an engineer, I feel I need to respond to a few of the assumptions here. I believe it is very difficult to get accepted into an engineering master’s program without an engineering undergrad - or it would require a lot of extra time to make up required courses. I’m an electrical engineer- when I went for my masters, it was assumed that I had the core electrical engineering courses. You can’t take a graduate level engineering course without the proper background. So, to answer your son’s question, it is very difficult to get a masters in engineering in 2 years from a liberal arts degree. At least for most fields.</p>
<p>Also, some masters degree programs are funded through research as opposed to teaching. So you don’t have to start a PHD program and plan to drop out to have the graduate degree funded.</p>
<p>I agree with many posters that it is difficult to transfer into engineering. But not all schools treat the early engineering courses as weed-out courses. Many students decide once they try engineering that it isn’t really what they want to do and transfer out. Some of us try engineering and decide that’s what we really want to do and transfer in.</p>
<p>Many fields don’t require a PE at all. The only working engineer I know who has her PE (and I know many engineers) is a civil engineer who does a lot of work for local governments or building projects.</p>
<p>Just FYI. UMich has a joined program between LSA and CoE in Cell & Molecular Biology and Biomedical Engineering. It is a 5yr program that includes a MS in CMB and a Master in BME. It would be perfect for pre-med track too and I think one may quit after the 4 year BSc and not pursuit the Master degree. Also, for BME, one would need a Master degree to find a job anyway.</p>
Translation needed, please. I understand that PE is “professional engineer,” but please explain needing an M.S. because you didn’t have the bachelor’s in engineering. Is there a masters other than the M.S.?</p>
<p>An M.E. is a Master’s in Engineering. Different schools define the Master of Science and the Master of Engineering differently to the extent that they offer both.</p>
<p>“PRO:He can find out as an undergrad whether or not he enjoys engineering and, if he doesn’t, he can transfer into a different major (STEM or non-STEM) and still be able to graduate within four years.”</p>
<p>is the compelling, decisive argument. If he doesn’t start in engineering how/when will he find out if it is something he wants to pursue?</p>
<p>Look at the course requirements for the schools that he has narrowed it down to. In engineering, I imagine he will be taking calculus, physics and chemistry. These will most likely fill requirements for any degree. Can he take a seminar at the engineering school that will answer some questions for him? I am thinking a seminar or short class in What is Engineering, or one that describes all the fields of engineering, or Intro to Electrical Engineering.</p>
<p>The questions of study abroad or grad school funding seem remote from the crucial decision of which school to choose.</p>
<p>If he does not major in engineering and wants to get a masters degree in engineering: How will he know that he does want to pursue engineering if he hasn’t sampled it undergrad? He will have to take the undergrad classes in engineering to be prepared for the graduate level classes, so it will take more time in grad school to get a degree.</p>
<p>Consolation, I hope I’m not getting too off topic. My S went to Michigan Tech, which I definitely would put into the as I call it a more nurturing way of teaching engineers. When he went there, it had an average of a 26 ACT. They were very welcoming and had many programs to make sure they were successful educating those kids. There is even a summer program for those who didn’t have AP calc or chemistry so that they can be on a level playing field. </p>
<p>I can not say enough about MTU. It’s not a school which gets a lot of love here, mostly because it’s in the middle of no where, literally lol! My S who as I like to say, graduated in the top 40% of his HS class, became not only a great engineer, but a great student and a great leader there. We were also so impressed with their career placement, MTU does have a good reputation for educating working engineers and have a lot of companies come to their career fair to interview. </p>
<p>Kid (and his girlfriend who he met there) have really good jobs now. I couldn’t be happier or prouder. </p>
<p>I’ve heard that Rose-Hulman also has a very nurturing philosophy. I’m sure there are others. </p>
<p>My sin is doing engineering at Lafayette. I don’t think the intro class was a hard weed out class as I defined weed out classes in college. Lots of people drip engineering after the class not because it is hard, but because they realize they don’t really want to be an engineer. The class is two modules designed around a project to introduce the fields. There is an evening presentation for each discipline that is mandatory attendance. You have to also attend at least two lunchtime talks from former students/companies recruiting on campus. If you attend class I think most people got good grades, but it is designed to get you to think about whether this is what you want for your major.</p>
<p>Frosh/soph level math/physics/chemistry courses are inherently “weeders” to some extent, since the rigor and content need to meet minimum standards so that instructors teaching more advanced courses won’t complain about unprepared students.</p>
<p>You’re killing me ucb lol! ;). I didn’t say it was perfect. I had a nephew who transferred out of engineering. It wasn’t that he wasn’t smart enough to do the work. It wasn’t for him, and he wasn’t prepared to do the work. Let’s fact it, engineering isn’t for everyone. And you have to want to put the time into it. It’s not a major if you want to go to class Monday through Thursday and not study on the weekends. </p>
<p>Some data points which may or may not be helpful:</p>
<p>On double majoring, it may be more common at the LACs which offer engineering. My roommate at Swarthmore double majored in Engineering and Economics. He went on to get a 1-year MS in Engineering Economic Systems at Stanford. In the last graduating class at Swarthmore 7 out of 21 graduating engineers had double majors, mostly in Computer Science but also Economics and Physics.</p>
<p>On how long it would take to get a MS in engineering after a BS - it all depends. The daughter of good friends got her MS in Mechanical Engineering at Penn in one year (or maybe just one semester - I forget) after getting her BS at Penn. She had a lot of extra credits entering and had taken a heavy load (and done very well) in her 4 years for the BS.</p>
<p>On funding for graduate school - many programs in arts and sciences (not sure about Engineering) only admit to their PhD program. If they do have a separate MA or MS program it is definitely subordinate to the PhD program. In math and the sciences the general rule is only to go to a program which gives you full funding - an admission to the program without funding is essentially a soft denial. Math and the sciences not only need TAs and graders, but also professors have research funding and need Research Assistants. Funding for TAs and RAs goes to the the PhD students because they are viewed as more qualified, will be around for many years, and are the real focus of the graduate program. Things are quite different in many social sciences and especially the humanities, but that is less relevant for the OP. </p>
<p>Engineering is quite different in my experience. The MS is quite a common terminal professional degree, and most people go into engineering to practice rather than teach. The PhD is really only required or appropriate to teach and/or do research. The vast majority of engineers are into the more practical side of their discipline.</p>
<p>A few comments based on the discussion up to this point:</p>
<ol>
<li>Completing an engineering degree requires a serious commitment of time and energy. How serious depends on aptitude, prior preparation, and study skills. However, it is very possible to continue other interests and take complementary studies in the humanities or social sciences seriously. I wouldn’t worry about the double major unless the second credential is important for future plans; the administrative requirements behind a ‘major’ are not always key to developing interest in and understanding of an area.</li>
</ol>
<p>I didn’t see whether the engineering program is at a tech school or a broader research university. The latter will offer more complementary opportunities.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>The OP mentioned chem, bio, physics but not math. Math is the key. I wouldn’t worry too much about an initial bad experience with physics, but if he is not comfortable gaining intuition and understanding from the mathematical representation/modeling of problems then engineering will not work out well.</p></li>
<li><p>My observation after three years of college is that my classmates who left high school with solid goals and plans are farther along than those (like myself) who were more uncertain. Focus will come (it did for me) but I am concerned about the idea of your son using college to ‘find himself’ if four-year gradation is a must. Engineering is unforgiving of indecision (courses are often sequenced) and med school is unforgiving of poor grades.</p></li>
<li><p>It is possible to get a graduate degree in engineering with a non-engineering bachelors degree. Most of the time, this seems to be a degree in physics or math. Even then, undergrad courses will probably be required to catch up in addition to the graduate requirements. Funding depends on the individual and the program. I would not look at this as equivalent to getting a bachelors in engineering; the MS is more specialized and research-driven.</p></li>
</ol>