Manhattan mom sues $19K/yr. preschool for damaging daughter's Ivy League chances

Parents Forum
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<p>Ivy league aside, it sounds like the mom has a valid complaint if she signed her kid up for an academic preschool, and the school was in fact not academic or didn’t place her child in an academically appropriate group. It doesn’t sound like the school advertised or was able to pull off Montessori-style multi-age groupings, and in most preschool settings, a 4yo in a room with 2yos really wouldn’t be the best fit for a bright 4yo. </p>

<p>I didn’t sue, but I did pull my youngest out of a non-academic preschool when he was placed with younger kids and ended up being bored and frustrated there. His teacher was very inflexible and it wasn’t a great fit, and they refused to move him up with older kids (because he was small for his age, and couldn’t put on his own snow pants – really). Now he mostly prefers playing with younger kids, but at the time the developmental gap was too great and he was unhappy. If I’d spent $19K I might have sued to get my money back too!</p>

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<p>This is hilarious</p>

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<p>“…but I think the mom is crazy to say it ruined her daughters chances at the Ivy League.”</p>

<p>As was pointed out, the headline said something like this, but in the article the mom didn’t say this at all. IIRC.</p>

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<p>I don’t agree with mathmomvt’s conclusion, but some skepticism about the report is appropriate. There is probably some kind of context that’s missing in the headline.</p>

<p>For starters, I would want to know: is the school itself guilty of setting this ridiculous expectation about Ivy League chances.</p>

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<p>Lord. Have. Mercy. My kids were home-schooled by their dad all the way through. We live in the NC backwoods. It’s a wonder those knuckle-dragging redneck bumpkin kids made it into any college at all, LOL. :)</p>

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<p>My kids were rejected from homeschool because at the interview they failed to show adequate respect for the faculty. Plus, they couldn’t come up with $19,000.</p>

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<p>We all laughed when we read this story, but actually the situation for NYC parents is quite sad. Taking the need for early childhood education as a given, what do you have as options if you live in the city: elite preschools that have been around for generations that are non-profit in nature, decent preschools and montessoris that have been around 5-15 years some non-profit some profit, and completely brand new preschools/daycare that is primarily for profit.
Used to be as recent as 10/15 yrs ago that a family interested in sending their kid to a private school in Manhattan would look around at a few preschools close to their homes, make a few phone calls, sign up for a tour of the school, bring the kid for a “playdate” where the school made sure the kid wont bite push and generally exhibit signs of the “bad seed”, have a parent interview that would make sure the parents arent the type like the woman in the article, and you’re good to go. When it came time to apply to the K-8 or K-12, a nice lady came to your preschool, took you into a corner, showed you some blocks, asked you some questions, and then you had more “playdates” at the “big girl or big boy” school.
Well then, NY got safer, more people from Wisconsin moved in (sorry but that comment by a poster from Wisconsin still rankles) and the striving population grew. So now we have a much higher competition for very small amt of spots. While the ERB (the nice lady) stayed the same, the preparation for it became completely insane. Knowing how to put a square peg into a square shape, what your mommy’s name is and what the stove is used for, are the type of questions asked by the ERB. Please dont tell me that any normal day to day interaction with one’s parent plus time spent playing at preschool precludes anyone passing the test.
Solutions? Trying to get better public schools. Will it ever happen? Most likely not since the unions control so much of the process. And that’s why we get crazies like the suing mom.
PS The ironic thing is the preschool that she’s suing isnt even “elite”.</p>

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<p>I’ve always wondered, how do you send a kid home from homeschool if they misbehave?</p>

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<p>@Hunt – LOL!!</p>

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<p>jym–you give him or her in-school suspension. :)</p>

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<p>My kids were thrown out of home school.</p>

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<p>Back in the day, 17-20 years ago, we paid $450 or so/month for our kids to be in preschool half-day (8-noon and perhaps a bit more when they stayed until 2/2:30). Lunch was extra. Class sizes ranged between 12-18 kids with one teacher. There was also a pre-school director who also added some lessons to each class, a secretary, a bathroom monitor, a music teacher, a PE teacher and a lot of field trips.</p>

<p>There was no test to get our kids into the preschool but once they were accepted, the kid was given an evaluation test to try to have some idea of how they would “fit” with the others in their class. Kids were mainly grouped by birthdate unless there was a special reason to change the grouping.</p>

<p>Nearly all the kids went from preschool into private grade schools (which at the time were running under $10K and now are about $18K/year), tho some of us put them in public schools (all you pay for is lunch, getting kids to & from school, school supplies, school fundraising, and field trips). Many homeschoolers we know seem to do it in HI for religious reasons or are very rural & live so far from a school.</p>

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<p>As a NYC resident, I feel compelled to defend this mom.</p>

<p>First, $19,000 is very average for pre-school. Here is a list of nursery schools and prices from 2008:
<a href=“http://www.blackboardawards.com/downloads/Manhattan_PreSchool_Tuition_08.pdf[/url]”>http://www.blackboardawards.com/downloads/Manhattan_PreSchool_Tuition_08.pdf&lt;/a&gt;
This is not an Upper East Side phenomenon. </p>

<p>Second, remember that the complaint was written by an attorney, not the mom. I suspect that her real complaint is that this is just a lousy pre-school. I have no knowledge of this one, but there are a lot of lousy pre-schools in Manhattan. Often, they are the ones that market themselves to naive parents as giving the kids an academically enriched environment which will help them ace the ERBs or other entrance exams. </p>

<p>And before someone says test prep is sillly–I assure you that way back in my offspring’s day, the elite private “feeder” pre-schools DID prepare kids for the ERB. Plus, one of the not quite kosher practice some of the private schools allow is to have the pre-school teacher administer the ERB. So, her’s your little Johnnie or Jane who has to go into a room by him/herself and take a test with an adult (s)he’s never seen before, and meanwhile Little Ms.Park Avenue Co-op is taking the same test administered by her regular teacher at Brick Presbyterian Church’s pre-school. (I may be way out of date, but that used to be a “hot” pre school. Not as hot as the 92nd St. Y’s, but hot.) </p>

<p>Note also that a lot of the elite private schools have their own pre-schools and they charge a lot more. Why do parents pay those prices, which are $10,000+ a year MORE than the pre-school that was sued? In part because it virtually guarantees the child a spot in K-12. </p>

<p>Public pre-schools are NOT the norm in Manhattan and as the City is cutting teaching jobs, it’s highly unlikely that more public pre-schools will be created, especially in affluent neighborhoods. </p>

<p>So, I don’t think this mom is whack. Nor do I think she has necessarily ruined her D’s chances of getting into a good private school. I don’t know what York’s reputation is.
I’ll bet the admissions folks at the private schools do, though. If it is in fact a really good pre-school, they yes, it will hurt. But if it is fact a lousy one, then I don’t think the law suit will be held against her. </p>

<p>If you don’t want to pay $19,000 , you may have other options. There are parent co-op schools. You have to volunteer your time in them and the one in our neigbhorhood still costs about $8,000-$9,000 a year. It has to pay rent. It has to pay for materials. It has to have insurance. It’s not an option for working parents because they can’t work their share of hours and the co-op requires that it be a parent who donates the time. </p>

<p>If you look on the list above, you’ll see that the good private schools with pre-schools charge a LOT more than $19,000.</p>

<p>You can choose not to put your kid into pre-school. In some neighborhoods, including mine, that results in social isolation. The vast majority of kids in our neighborhood attend pre-school. If yours doesn’t, it’s hard to find another child available to play with. Some of those who will be available in my neighborhood don’t speak English. When they are very little, thiis isn’t a problem. But, even at 3 it is. Plus, if you don’t speak the mother (or grandmother’s language), which is usually, but not always Spanish, you wont’ be able to arrange the play date.</p>

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<p>We all know how important it is to get into an ivy league college…our financial future will be guaranteed and we will be better people.</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>Actually, there were more magnet schools than Hunter College High School. For instance, Stuyvesant High School, Bronx Science, and Brooklyn Tech were founded before WWII. I attended one of those schools and believe me, they did a form of tracking. </p>

<p>For instance, if you were ready to take AP calc in 9th or 10th grade like many high school classmates, you got placed in there. </p>

<p>In fact, so many classmates got placed into AP classes and even taking intro and intermediate undergraduate courses at local universities that kids who started out taking the regular curriculum…even with the faster pacing, greater rigor, and much more work were considered on the “■■■■■■ track”. </p>

<p>Incidentally, the high standards, pacing, and rigor were such that my entering freshman class suffered an attrition rate of ~28% by senior year…with most kids opting to quit in the first two years. Started out with ~950 incoming freshmen…ended senior year with less than 700. </p>

<p>Considering I somehow got admitted to a respectable private LAC with a near-full ride despite graduating near the bottom of my high school graduating class and did well there, I don’t think I did too badly. </p>

<p>On the OP’s topic, I agree with those who said these upper-east sider type parents are INSANE and are buying into the very thinking process that’s much more applicable to East Asian societies like Japan, the ROC(Taiwan), or China where going to the wrong schools can permanently shut you out of the best universities* and thus, the most prestigious plum jobs in the public and private sectors. </p>

<p>This is not very applicable in the US context. One example of this is how quarter of my NYC public high school graduating class were admitted to at least one Ivy…and a greater proportion ended up at other elite or respectable schools. </p>

<p>Though it is a magnet high school, the vast majority of us came from working class/poor immigrant families and were eligible for free school lunches. Some of us came from unstable homes or from crime-ridden neighborhoods far removed from the posh upper-east side or other neighborhoods of that ilk. </p>

<p>Considering all that, I don’t think we did too badly…notwithstanding portents of doom about children being “ruined for life” from parents like many upscale NYC residents I’ve read about and encountered IRL. </p>

<ul>
<li>Due to tracking where going to kindergarten, elementary, and intermediate schools which don’t provide adequate preparation for the university feeder academic high schools’ admissions exams means being effectively shut out of even being able to apply, much less gain admission to the best universities.</li>
</ul>

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<p>mhmm: 10-15 years ago, this high-stakes competition was emerging. I worked in NYC 23 years ago. My boss lived on the Upper East Side and his 6 year old daughter was applying to Kindergarten programs all the elite schools in the city. I remember how stressed he was, the phone calls he made, the connections he was trying to solidify. He sweated those interviews (I heard about each one). I also remember he created a resume for his daughter than outshone mine. (And she was only 5-6!!) That made me even more certain I’d move to the suburbs.</p>

<hr>

<p>Does anyone know anyone whose child actually took “the test” this year (not 20 years ago)? I do! My brother’s daughter took the test and got the “highest of any score possible” (99.9% I think). She’s actually a real sweetheart: personable, amazingly curious, incredibly verbal. It didn’t surprise me she scored so high. (And, no she wasn’t “prepped”, although she went to a preschool. This preschool doesn’t advertise to prep either.) He applied to schools all over and she only got into ONE school. She was WL at several and rejected from another one or two. The results didn’t surprise me either: she doesn’t have legacy or URM and her parents don’t have a lot of money. Her brother attends a gifted public school in the city, but the results of that selection hasn’t been completed yet.</p>

<p>What gets me is that this story isn’t complete. The mother yanked her daughter out in November. Where did she go after that? Did she go to another preschool, or did she homeschool her? (Horrors!) And, if taking those tests were so important, why didn’t she have her daughter take those prep-courses, which are similar to what HS take in anticipation of the SATs.

</p>

<p>Forget about trying to get this child into another elite preschool, wouldn’t an IVY league admissions person (13-14 years from now) be leery about admitting her too? This is incredibly presumptuous.

</p>

<p>Finally, I’m not at all sure why the mother thinks the school mis-represented itself. They did everything they advertised: a school for 2s, 3s, and 4s, took weekly library trips, and gave them French lessons.

</p>

<p>As someone who lives nearby (suburbia), these prices are NOT unreasonable. And many of these preschools to be feeder schools. Apparently York is not one of them.</p>

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<p>I think that the typical pathway to the NYC public by admission high schools starts with the elementary schools. Its a different fight to get into the better ones, but still a fight. Part of it is what elementary school you are “zoned” for, but the better elementary schools are facing overcrowding, especially in Manhattan.</p>

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<p>"Actually, there were more magnet schools than Hunter College High School. For instance, Stuyvesant High School, Bronx Science, and Brooklyn Tech were founded before WWII. I attended one of those schools and believe me, they did a form of tracking. "</p>

<p>Who was talking about Hunter College High School ?
I certainly never mentioned it, or didn’t intend to.
I spoke about Hunter elementary school. Or intended to, anyway.</p>

<p>We are talking about elementary and earlier here, not high schools.</p>

<p>How many pre-schoolers and elementary school students were in your classes at Stuyvesant, or attended Bronx Science and Brooklyn Tech??? Because that’s what we’re talking about here.</p>

<p>Besides which, you are talking about elite high schools that require tests and grades for admission just like the private schools do. Not everyone can gain admission to Stuyvesant, or Hunter.</p>

<p>Your story may have been compelling if you’d attended Seward Park High School, but actually you graduated from one of the most elite public high schools in the country. So you had good results after graduating from a different elite school, what a shock !!</p>

<p>All of which is off point here.</p>

<p>Lots of students go to private schools through middle school then apply to these elite publics for high school. That’s all besides the point.</p>

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<p>This is why I swore many years ago that I would NEVER try to raise a child in New York City.</p>

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<p>Check out this documentary [Nursery</a> University](<a href=“http://www.nurseryuniversitythemovie.com/trailer.html]Nursery”>http://www.nurseryuniversitythemovie.com/trailer.html).</p>

<p>It accurately portrays the intense competition that ensues in NYC to get into good schools.</p>