Manhattan mom sues $19K/yr. preschool for damaging daughter's Ivy League chances

Parents Forum
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<p>^^
Monydad,</p>

<p>I mentioned the 3 specialized high schools because in saying the following:</p>

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<p>the information above may mislead those who don’t know much about NYC schools to assume that there were no public magnet schools before you moved out. Just wanted to provide a more complete picture of the NYC educational landscape…especially when the three specialized high schools existed before WWII. </p>

<p>In the process, I also addressed the supposed issue of “lack of tracking” in public schools. That was certainly not the case at my own high school.</p>

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<p>When most New Yorkers mention Hunter IME, they almost always mean the college or the high school as both are at least open to all in NYC. </p>

<p>Hunter College Elementary won’t register with most unless they live in Manhattan, especially the upper-east side or other posh neighborhoods of that ilk as it is not open to folks in the outer boroughs.</p>

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<p>I can say the same thing about Hunter College Elementary School as they not only restrict admissions, but you also have to live in Manhattan…a reason why some outer boroughs colleagues’ kids weren’t allowed to apply. Moreover, I heard from several people including Hunter College High school alums that a certain percentage of admission slots are reserved for graduates of Hunter’s elementary school…so going there provides what some would consider an unfair advantage regarding admissions.</p>

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<p>I am speechless.</p>

<p>o.O</p>

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<p>But again, I was not talking about high school.
The people are making these decisions way before high school.
And this thread involves someone making a decision about pre-school, not high school.</p>

<p>The options for high school were, and still are evidently, better than the options before high school. There are tracked publics , with admissions tests to enter just like the privates. That much is true. However, completely off topic.</p>

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<p>Cobrat - ONE school such as Hunter which offers free high quality elementary school is not the answer to everyone’s prayers. Yes there are magnet schools, but of a variety of quality. </p>

<p>I am impressed that YOU go through one of the selective high schools, but that and Hunter do not have close to enough spots for all.</p>

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<p>Yeah, I still remember how APPALLED my BIL was that we were sending our S from preschool to a public school and how he thought it was just awful and even OFFERED TO PAY for our S to attend a private school (my sister, his wife) never seconded the offer & years later, THEY sent their kiddos to public grade school as well–she teaches at public grade school!</p>

<p>People are really interesting about how they think of schools, education, etc. & how much they’re willing to pay for it, from how young, etc. We’re satisfied that our kids for the most part benefited from the choices we made regarding their schooling but we suspect they would have thrived through most situations anyway.</p>

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<p>The vast majority of NYC residents don’t attend these exclusive “elite” pre-schools due to expense and/or the feeling that it is not necessary at that stage of life. Included in this vast majority are myself, nearly all my high school classmates, and most elite college students/alums I’ve met IRL. </p>

<p>I don’t think they did too badly considering the portents of doom of “kids being ruined” being kicked around in the mass media and from some posh upper-east sider types IRL.</p>

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<p>@limabeans et al. – Those poor UES kids–rejected from elite preschools at age 5 or 6. They will be basket cases by the time they’re applying to college.</p>

<p>I cannot even imagine that kind of pressure. Oy!</p>

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<p>So Cobrat if you think there is no value to attending a school designed for high ability kids, that tracks, why did you attend Stuyvesant, which is a high school for high ability kids, that tracks?</p>

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<p>“Actually, there were more magnet schools than Hunter College High School. For instance, Stuyvesant High School, Bronx Science, and Brooklyn Tech were founded before WWII.”</p>

<p>As noted above, Hunter, BxSci, Stuy and Tech are all high schools - - and the dirty little secret behind the success of those schools is than many of the successful applicants attended pvt school - - most often for middle schools (where it is almost universally acknowledged that there are no REALLY good public options) and sometimes K-8. I recall a NYT article several years ago about the SciHi test reporting, "Even girls ffrom the elite Brearley School stand in line . . . . " Lots of pvt school kids at LaGuardia, Beacon and the renound Midwood sci program in Bklyn, too. </p>

<p>Still, these are, in every sense of the word, public schools. With the exception of Huneter (which starts in 6th grade), each is close in size to a small uni (BxSci is the smalles at about 2500, Stuy is about 3500 and Tech is probably over 5600) and classes are crowded - - but for a city the size of NYC, that’s very few “magnet” seats.</p>

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<p>"The vast majority of NYC residents don’t attend these exclusive “elite” pre-schools due to expense and/or the feeling that it is not necessary at that stage of life.</p>

<p>Maybe, but NYC parents certainly jockey for slots in the elem schools (like PS6, or PS41, or 321 in Pk Slope, or, back in the day, the infamous SD15 gifted prgm).</p>

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<p>Edited for full disclosure: D1 went to top UES day school thanks to VERY generous finaid; D2 went to PS6 (didn’t make the cut w/ her ERBs), Friends (no aid) and Beacon. D1 graduates from Smith this May, D2 is taking a gap year.</p>

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<p>First of all, again, if you have a child in daycare, even low-quality daycare, you will be paying around $15 grand a year. It does cost that much. People think public school is a bad deal… unless you go for black market child care (I kid you not), a nanny is cheaper than child care in a licensed facility, in many areas, if you have two or more children.</p>

<p>I suspect a lot of you just do not know the economics here. When the head of the pre-school has a master’s, and the staff all make at least minimum wage, you will pay for that. Even co-ops have high rents in big cities, and people don’t want to drive a half and hour to a lower-rent area for pre-school.</p>

<p>Second of all, this woman is actually suing for the exact reasons mentioned here: Pre-school (part-time, anyway) is NOT WORTH THAT MUCH. She is saying so. She’s saying that they didn’t deliver what they promised. It may not be couched in so many words, but that is her complaint, and it’s a fair one. “No pre-school could be worth that much” is a general statement that would be very hard to prove, but she’s speaking in specifics which is all she can do, legally.</p>

<p>And finally… yeah, I would be really irritated if in a pre-school, my four-year-old were playing with two-year-olds all day. Now, daycare is a different story. But if this is supposed to be an enriching environment, no, playing with semi-verbal toddlers all day does not do that. My child attends a public pre-school (well, semi-public as they’re all run by the churches here) in Germany, and they are strongly tracked by age. It is play-based but they have different lessons like music, gym, art, science, etc. Obviously these are age-appropriate and there are no flashcards or anything like that, but still. It’s enriching, though mostly play. It’s also free.</p>

<p>If I were paying $19k and didn’t get that, I would be livid. And yes, I can see paying $8/hr for child care. Sorry. I’ve been in the market for child care and I know what minimum wage is, and what rent is, so that number does not shock me.</p>

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<p>Astounding, but I have read about the preschool admissions rat race & tracking, so I am not really surprised.</p>

<p>Elsewhere people can get caught up in the preschool decision, it’s just more concentrated in NYC.</p>

<p>I remember when my first child was starting preschool, another mom and I looked at a couple of different options, some more expensive than others. Cheapest was a co-op preschool in a nearby church basement. It probably would have been perfectly fine, if we wanted to devote the time necessary for the co-op requirement. At one point we looked at each other and said, “You know, this will not determine where they go to college.” Which was true, at least in our fair city. :)</p>

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<p>“We all know how important it is to get into an ivy league college…our financial future will be guaranteed and we will be better people.”</p>

<p>An interesting sentiment on CC where 95% of the discussion focused on the top LACs/unis. And while a degree from HYP does not guarantee success/happiness, we all want out kids to be as prepared as possible for an increasingly competitive world. A good education is essential to that preparedness and those w/ academ gifted kids, understandably want their kids to be in position to at least consider top LACs/unis when the time comes.</p>

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<p>The girl was only in the mixed class for a month. And construction was mentioned…I bet when the story comes out it will be clear it was a temporary situation and the mom is the litigitous type.</p>

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<p>Admissions to the top private schools are very tough. This is going to make it almost impossible for the child because the process is almost geared to finding reasons to disqualify the candidacy and, unlike college admissions, there isn’t a spot for every child. Many are shut out altogether. Whatever the test scores might be, there’s no recommendation that will fix this.</p>

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<p>The way the story is postured and the way the attorney has described it has made it ludicrous. However, I see so many expensive pre schools that brag about how well they prepare their kids when they do nothing of the sort. I think a law suit like that might get them thinking about what they say they do vs what they do. </p>

<p>Yes, any big city preschool situation is a rat race but NYC has the biggest rats of all. I was caught up once upon a time. Lived in a high rise in a major city, and everyone with kids had them one of three schools. If you didn’t get your kid in one of them, you were off schedule, out of luck in car pools and felt left out. By the time I had my fifth one in preschool which was here in NY, I just stuck him in a program as an after thought. How the priorities change.</p>

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<p>Zooser, my guess is the mom is looking for a house in Short Hills or Scarsdale as we speak.</p>

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<p>The other parts of the country practice their own version of this wackiness but they’re less candid about it. We lived in a small city in the midwest- lots of choices for preschool at a variety of price points. But how does a family where both mother and father work cope with a nursery school that lets out at 2 pm? Or has "early drop off’ at 9 am, with the regular day beginning at 9:30? The message here is very clear- unless you have the luxury of a full time stay at home parent, don’t even think about putting your child in our school. The tuition may be cheap but the price of entry is extremely steep, i.e. SAHM.</p>

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<p>Where we live, people go to outrageous lengths to get their kids into the “right” summer day camps.</p>

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<p>According to the article, the lawsuit seeks “class action” status – that part is nuts. (Legal opinion here: I don’t care what the true facts are, this is not a “class action” law suit. And I personally think it’s rather ironic that someone in search of elite schooling would want to be made part of a “class”. ).</p>

<p>What it is: a standard breach of contract action. In any case, if you pay $X based on a representation that is material to the contract, and you don’t get what you bargained for, then you can sue to get your money back. I find it hard to believe that the parent is out $19,000 – I’d think that most pre-schools charge a deposit + monthly tuition – but maybe the practice in NY is to request more payment in advance. </p>

<p>I’d note that it’s possible that this is the lawyer’s fault rather than the parent’s – that is, maybe the mom went to a lawyer to ask how she could get her money back because the school was refusing her request for a refund - and the lawyer is the one who came up with the class action idea. I say that because clients usually don’t tell their lawyers what kind of lawsuit to bring, and they usually go along with their lawyer’s advice as to strategy and tactics.</p>

<p>Even if the mom’s complaints about the school are overstated, if she paid $$ in advance for services she ceased to use early on because she was unhappy, then she generally would be entitled to a partial refund. The school would be under an obligation to mitigate its own damages by finding another child to fill the spot-- so it couldn’t claim that a whole year’s tuition was nonrefundable.</p>

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I certainly hope so! Because, if not, she needs to be looking for a good child psychologist.</p>