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<p>Actually, that’s point I was making way back in the second half of post #10.</p>
<p>JHS, LOL, that’s exactly what I was thinking when I heard Maria Shriver speak. “Hmmm, they’re probably advertising for a new Dean of Admission at BC…”</p>
<p>I wonder what her stats were…my daughter was waitlisted, but sort of flattered , not upset</p>
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<p>I most definitely agree that this is the important point of the story. I also agree that being priviliged or the child of someone famous is not an automatic “in”. It is definitely a hook if a student already is being considered for admission. </p>
<p>I’d like to add that for Shriver’s D, she was waitlisted which is an indication of a willingness to accept her and she obviously has what it takes if she got into USC (and wherever else she got in) and therefore, does not imply that she wasn’t good enough for BC. It is rather refreshing that she was not an automatic admit and like some others say, perhaps they were not convinced that she would enroll (but that is conjecture of course).</p>
<p>JHS…yes, the “say WHAT?” from the president at BC is funny as it may look like negative publicity for BC but in lots of ways, I think it is positive publicity for BC as it shows that there was no unfair favoritism in this sort of case. I see that as a plus for their image. </p>
<p>Middsmith…
For one thing, you stated as a fact that JFK, Jr. barely graduated Brown. That is your OPINION, not a fact. You wrote that he was not bright. </p>
<p>Your rationale:</p>
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<p>I know nothing of JFK Jr.'s case at Andover. Do you? I do know that many boys often take an extra year for maturity in their K-12 education for reasons that have nothing to do with intellectual ability. If he was not able to perform academically there, he would not have gotten in or be allowed to stay. Taking an extra year is something I know that VERY bright boys have done, including those attending TOP prep boarding schools to which they were admitted. </p>
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<p>This is not an indicator to me that someone is not bright. There are lots of people who have attended top law schools who may have to take the bar more than once in order to pass it. </p>
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<p>How well do you know Brown? I believe you are 17 or 18 and about to enter Amherst, right? I know Brown a bit as my kid just graduated from Brown. The ONLY way to graduate with HONORS that I know of at Brown is to write a THESIS which is totally optional. I don’t believe there is “distinction” for a certain GPA. (even if there was, I just went to graduation and surely didn’t see a majority with that “title” as you implied) My kid’s GPA was higher than the one you provided but was not called “with distinction.” She had been approved to write a thesis but then opted not to because she was also a TA for a course (teaching sections), a varsity athlete, a group leader for her department, a freshmen advisor, and applying to graduate schools for architecture which is intense as it also involves preparing a portfolio. So, shes didn’t graduate with Honors as she chose not to write a thesis (like the majority do not). Even so, at graduation she was awarded the prize for outstanding senior in her department out of 75 students, even those who graduated with Honors who had written a thesis. So, not sure your criteria for “graduating with distinction” but I only know that my kid had EXCELLENT grades at Brown, got the top honor in her department, will enter MIT for grad school but has no “graduating with distinction” next to her name. I hope you might call her “bright” even though she doesn’t have this “title”. You are also questioning the rigor of Brown and are quite off the mark. Just because you COULD opt to take courses pass/fail, doesn’t mean that the majority take that route or do that with many classes. The coursework is challenging and the graduates go on to the finest graduate programs. Your criteria about Brown students and about the “brightness” of JFK, Jr. doesn’t ring true. </p>
<p>By the way, while I don’t think there is a GPA cutoff like you stated, surely even if that stat were true, if someone had a 3.2, I would hardly classify that as “barely graduated” (not that you even know WHAT JFK, Jr.'s GPA was anyway). He must have done all right to get into Law School. </p>
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<p>Again, by omitting those adjectives in describing John, Jr. by some friends does not lead one to conclude that the guy was not smart. When I describe my kid and when her friends do, most don’t necessarily mention her smart intellect but rather, her other qualities. Were these guys talking about John, Jr. after his death? I would think other qualities would have been at the forefront of their mind in such a situation. By not mentioning that he was also smart, does not imply “beating around the bush” or that he was therefore “not bright.” Were they asked point blank how bright John was? I have no clue how you’d conclude the guy wasn’t smart due to the fact that when his friends talked about him posthumously, they didn’t bring up how bright he was, but chose to talk of his other qualities. If I describe my friend as smart, likeable, creative, and a leader, do you then conclude she is not ALSO pretty because I omitted that quality about her? Same idea.</p>
<p>^^ of course you are a Brown parent. </p>
<p>How do you justify failing the bar exam several times coming from an elite institution? Why can’t you just call it what it is. Apparently, there’s a pink elephant in the middle of Rhodes Island and no one talks/wants to talk about it. He got into NYU Law because he’s JFK Jr.</p>
<p>LOL soozievt – nothing like spoiling someone’s fun with, uh, you know – facts !</p>
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<p>My brother went to Brown. He did not fail the bar and in fact, is the head of the judiciary for his entire state and oversees judges. I bet some students from Amherst fail the bar initially but eventually pass it. What a concept. JFK, Jr. eventually passed the bar, no?</p>
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<p>That’s funny because here we have a thread where a Kennedy didn’t get into BC because she was a Kennedy. </p>
<p>Oh, in case you want to call me biased (as you are in post #66), I will freely tell you that I also have a kid at NYU. </p>
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<p>Sorry for laughing but Brown is a highly selective university where its graduates have an excellent track record in both graduate school admissions (including law schools and med school) and in employment. You may want to smear the reputation but in the greater world, Brown graduates are doing just fine and are considered quite bright and in demand. The school is NOT easy by any means. The students are driven and motivated to excel despite grading systems. They achieve because they WANT to (and ARE bright). No different than at say, Amherst. :)</p>
<p>^^^middsmith - the vast majority of people who fail the NY State bar exam never pass it; most never even re-take it. The fact that he persisted says something about his character and his intelligience.</p>
<p>Moreover, he completed his baccalaureate in four years. He completed his law school studies in the time required, without a break. Let’s wait and see how well you do at Amherst before you start throwing stones.</p>
<p>middsmith,
how much do you know about taking the bar exam? Not a whole lot, apparently. Do you know that there is a distinction between places like NYU and New York Law school? NYU is a national law school, and New York Law school is a regional law school. Graduates of New York Law school are well prepared to take the bar exam for the state of NY. Graduates of NYU law school are not specifically prepared to take the bar exam for the state of New York. I am willing to wager that New York Law School has a higher percentage of it’s graduates passing the NY State Bar Exam on the first try, yet everyone would agree that it is much more difficult to get into NYU law school. And no, I don’t have a child who goes to Brown.</p>
<p>The fact that you referenced the idea of GPA in distinction alone shows that you don’t really know anything about Brown’s policies. Brown doesn’t calculate GPA. Furthermore, with distinction isn’t even noted on public records, only on internal ones.
“The determination is based not on the grade point average (which Brown does not calculate) but on the percentage of ‘A’ grades and marks of ‘S with distinction’ that a student receives in courses taken at Brown. The distinction mark, while visible to the student in the online internal record, may not be released outside the University and therefore is not noted on the external transcript. However, the distinction mark is taken into account by the Committee on Academic Standing when determining the recipients of magna cum laude each year.”</p>
<p>Yes, with the Pass/Fail option graduating from Brown can be as difficult or as easy as you make it—but I fail to see how that makes it a “pink elephant”. The point of the pass/fail option is to encourage exploration without fear and plays on the idea of being driven by curiosity rather than a need for a grade–which is the “ideal” of academia, is it not? Sure, it has the possibility of being abused, and I’m sure it is to some extent, but the students I know are incredibly driven and hard-working and take most(if not all) of their classes for a grade.</p>
<p>Yeah, I forgot that important point too! Brown doesn’t compute a GPA. When I said my kid’s GPA was higher than the made up one that middsmith used in saying it was a cut off for “graduating with distinction” (NOT SO), I only happened to know that she had a higher GPA because some of her grad school apps required her to compute the GPA even though her transcript doesn’t provide one. </p>
<p>I have NO clue how middsmith KNOWS that JFK Jr. had lower than a 3.3 (there was no way of knowing this) or that he “barely graduated” or that he did not graduate with “distinction” which is not something on the public record. Graduating with HONORS is only for those who choose to write a thesis, as I stated earlier. It has nothing to do with GPA.</p>
<p>Oh boy did I rattle some parents.
That’s funny because others have pointed out that JFK Jr. is not in the same category as Katherine S.
If you don’t have a certain GPA, you can’t write a thesis to graduate with Honors. So it has a lot to do with GPA.</p>
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Couldn’t find the link to the 3.3 in history/social science major, but here’s the engineering.
On graded coursework, of course.
[Division</a> of Engineering Honors Requirements](<a href=“http://www.engin.brown.edu/undergrad/guide/honors.htm]Division”>http://www.engin.brown.edu/undergrad/guide/honors.htm)</p>
<p>Anyway, I’m not responding to this mess anymore. Parents win. You all add up to several hundred years of education over me, what do I know.</p>
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<p>For one thing, you do NOT know the criteria for being approved to write a thesis at Brown, do you? They also do not have GPAs at Brown. Anyway, my D had a high GPA (if you calculate it) at Brown. She WAS approved to write a thesis (but had to go through a very involved approval process that goes well beyond her GPA) but she CHOSE not to write one. So, do you then conclude she did not have a good GPA since she did not graduate with Honors? (not true) For that matter, you have no idea why JFK Jr didn’t write a thesis, do you? It is purely optional to do (you don’t know that he wasn’t approved…my kid was approved to do one but opted not to) Do you then conclude she is not bright? (not true…I already mentioned benchmarks like winning the highest award in her dept. at Brown, getting into numerous grad schools including Ivies and MIT, and was valedictorian at her HS…just to make my point…sorry). Do you then conclude she “barely graduated Brown”? (LOL) I have no clue how you reached a stated conclusion that JFK Jr was “not bright”, “barely graduated Brown”, “did not graduate with distinction” and so forth. Sorry. Add to it your smearing Brown and how “easy” it is when in the academic and employment world, that is not its reputation.</p>
<p>Please learn the difference between fact and fiction. You stated opinions earlier in the thread as facts. That is the issue.</p>
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<p>Bush was no academic superstar, however his grades at Yale were higher than John Kerry’s.
[Larry</a> Elder](<a href=“http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/elder062305.asp]Larry”>Larry Elder)</p>
<p>An article in the Washington Post describes Al Gore’s transcript as similarly dismal, although I was unable to locate an exact GPA.
[Gore’s</a> Grades Belie Image of Studiousness (washingtonpost.com)](<a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A37397-2000Mar18]Gore’s”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A37397-2000Mar18)</p>
<p>This was an interesting note from the article about the author of An Inconvenient Truth:
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<p>Gore’s SAT scores were excellent, but his high school grades and SAT II scores were unimpressive at best. Gore likely got into Harvard because he too had Daddy’s connections, since his daddy was a U.S. Senator.</p>
<p>^^Which just goes to show you that even those dratted legacies who didn’t deserve to get in, can be tremendously successful and make major contributions to our society.</p>
<p>Bay, that is an excellent point. </p>
<p>It also dovetails well wth middsmith’s assertions that John Jr. didn’t have what it took to graduate Brown or didn’t have what took to get into Law school or pass the bar. But in his very short life time, he was an assistant district attorney and publisher. Not shabby achevements.</p>
<p>momof3sons said. “Graduates of New York Law school are well prepared to take the bar exam for the state of NY. Graduates of NYU law school are not specifically prepared to take the bar exam for the state of New York. I am willing to wager that New York Law School has a higher percentage of it’s graduates passing the NY State Bar Exam on the first try, yet everyone would agree that it is much more difficult to get into NYU law school.”</p>
<p>Mom, you lose.</p>
<p>[The</a> Prelaw Advisor: Interested in Practicing Law in New York State?](<a href=“http://theprelawadvisor.blogspot.com/2007/03/interested-in-practicing-law-in-new.html]The”>http://theprelawadvisor.blogspot.com/2007/03/interested-in-practicing-law-in-new.html)</p>
<p>By the way, it’s sort of overkill to say JFK Jr. took the bar exam “several times.” As I recall, he passed on his third try. As some legal employers and successful test takers will tell you, passing most bar exams is just a matter of putting your nose to the grindstone without interuption for about 6 weeks. The questions are not particularly novel to a recent law graduate. I think JFK Jr. was a bit of a partier as a single young man and didn’t study hard enough initially. That’s why he ultimately rented an apartment in Albany and studied there (rathern than Manhattan) on his third try.</p>
<p>NYU Law school tops the list of New York State Law School Graduates taking the NY Bar Exam. for 2007 96% pass , 2006 95% pass, and 2005 94% pass. </p>
<p>[TaxProf</a> Blog: New York Law School Rankings by 2007 Bar Exam Results](<a href=“http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2007/12/new-york-law-sc.html]TaxProf”>http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2007/12/new-york-law-sc.html)</p>
<p>The stats listed here are more up to date than those in vercingetorix’s post. but they illustrate the same point.</p>
<p>NY Law School came in 5th in 2007 90%,pass up, from 84% pass in 2006 and 74% pass in 2005.</p>
<p>The vast majority of Law School Graduates pass on the first attempt, and for those who attend top schools over 90% of those taking the NY Bar pass on their first attempt.</p>
<p>Whether it is fair to draw any conclusions about a certain individual’s abilities from this is debatable.</p>
<p>One thing is certain, he proved the saying:
“There are Old Pilots and there are Bold Pilots,
but there are,…No…Old…Bold…Pilots.”</p>