<p>Barq, your reasoning is confusing and at times contradictory. In any case, a friend’s son (from nova) who is a freshman at UVA said that the IB program at his high school was so hard that he feels he is breezing through his classes at uva. So no, there is no grade inflation around here and yes the students work extremely hard and yes like most schools in the country AP/IB grades are weighted which is only fair and UVA does recognize them.
The admission criteria are still a mystery that we have to live with.<br>
This same kid had 3 friends with the same stats who applied to the same schools (UVA, Georgetown, Vanderbilt) and whose outcomes were completely different from his. He was admitted at UVA while the others were waitlisted, but one was admitted at Gtown and another at Vanderbilt. As we all know, it’s pretty much a crap shoot.</p>
<p>Looking at the naviance scattergrams from my kid’s school, UVa seems very predictable. High school GPA is a very strong predictor of whether an applicant gets admitted. If you are right on the bubble, of course it looks like a “crap shoot,” but it is surprising just how regular the patterns are. Different colleges stress different things (W&M’s scattergrams look like the results of a game of darts), so it is not surprising that outcomes differ across schools. </p>
<p>At my kid’s school and the neighboring school, over two dozen kids were accepted to UVa last year. With so many accepted, I cannot take seriously the claims that many brilliant kids are not getting in. Yes, some people develop later than others. (Some sixth round draft picks make it to the NFL Hall of Fame while many first round picks are complete busts.) But the idea that UVa is denying acceptance to brilliant kids is far-fetched. </p>
<p>I have not done undergraduate admissions but I have done graduate admissions. No doubt, many unsuccessful applicants thoiught that the process was completely random, but they would not feel that way if they were privy to our deliberations.</p>
<p>We have a program today, so I haven’t had time to monitor all of this, but I have already seen a few posts where comments have been attributed to me, but I have not made the statements in the quotes. </p>
<p>I’ll be back on Monday to look over recent posts more carefully.</p>
<p>I want to state again (as I have done so previously) that the OOS students at UVA are no doubt top notch but anyone who says that the school could not be filled with top notch students from Virginia is dreaming, bottom line. To say that some people don’t get in because those admitted are some how more qualified is ridiculous. No school including UVA admits only the best applicants. They admit applicants who they think will match a need at the school or bring something to the school it does not have. </p>
<p>The argument that OOS somehow poor money into Virginia is also ludicrous. Unless your family is spending about 5% of their earned income you are not matching what someone from Virginia is paying to the state every year. To those who point out that OOS students pay so much more than in state students I ask why then whenever I have talked to a student from OOS they say the same thing regarding the bargain they are getting coming to Virginia? It normally runs like this, Why did you come to (UVA/JMU/William & Mary) from New Jersey (NY/Maryland, etc)? The answer? This is great school and you cant touch the quality education Im getting here for the cost. If you feel it is too much then go somewhere else. Virginia will have a tough time carrying on without you but I think we will survive. </p>
<p>Lastly you are right about one thing. It is not only not as transparent as I would like it to be it is completely cloaked in secrecy. That way the schools can do what ever the feel is best for the school. Those who get in will say it is because they deserved it those who do not say they were robbed. We will never really know will we?</p>
<p>Lastly I understand the facts. UVA, like all schools will do what it pleases. Im amazed that so many people seem to think that someone who lives in Virginia dose not have a right to question how one of MY STATE schools selects students.</p>
<p>If the process is “is completely cloaked in secrecy” how can you be sure that:
“anyone who says that the school could not be filled with top notch students from Virginia is dreaming” and to “say that some people don’t get in because those admitted are some how more qualified is ridiculous”? You evidently are are only speculating because the process is too secret for you to KNOW for sure.</p>
<p>“Unless your family is spending about 5% of their earned income you are not matching what someone from Virginia is paying to the state every year.”
^^^^ Interesting fact. How much of your 5% goes specifically to UVA? Do you think the extra 20K that OOS students pay for tuition might come close? </p>
<p>BTW - Thanks again for your contribution to the OOS students.</p>
<p>I would say that the average Virginia family is paying more than ANY OOS parent is paying in taxes toward the school would you not? If my student does not even go to a state school do I not pay more than an OOS student’s family in taxes toward the school? In addition I only pointed that out to counter the ridiculous statement that an OOS student and family are somehow contributing some large sum to the tax base of Virginia by eating at the local Arby’s when visiting for graduation and parent weekend. Dean J has made a good point (one I did not know) that the amount is about 157 million. Which I point out again is not being paid for by ANY OOS taxpayer.</p>
<p>Good point on the reverse logic regarding “knowing anything for sure”. Finally a set of good counter punches! I am as sure of that as all of the people on this board that “are sure they were selected because they were the best qualified.” I think that is indeed my point. How do we know? Only the school knows and they will not be sharing the stats with us. We get what Dean J calls the “statistical averages” just like you get at any school. So people above and below the average are accepted. So logically if there is a Virginian that is above the average and does not get in is he/she not “bumped by someone else.” Are all the below average students only from Virginia? If they are, your right, if they are not I’m right.</p>
<p>“I would say that the average Virginia family is paying more than ANY OOS parent is paying in taxes toward the school would you not?”
^^^^
In taxes? Sure. If a VA parent is paying $100.00 in taxes per year that are applied to supporting UVA that would definitely be $100 more than an OOS parent is paying in VA taxes. On the other hand, if a VA resident pays 5% state income tax and only 1/100th of that is applied to the UVA budget, then perhaps an OOS parent may be paying more of the UVA budget than the the VA parent. How much of your 5% actually benefits UVA? If the OOS tuition is 20K more than in-state, how much income tax would you have to pay to contribute as much of UVA’s budget as an OOS student? Over how many years would you need to “contribute” your minute portion of your state income tax before it added up to 80K (4 years)? Or is your point that OOS UVA students should be paying more of the Commonwealth of Virginia’s total budget?</p>
<p>Nice mathematical breakdown and a very well thought out point.The OOS student who is paying OOS tuition to UVA is definitely paying more than an average Virginia family contributes to UVA in taxes. There is no doubt that is the case. A student from Virginia is also paying a much greater percenatge than any family from Virginia is paying in taxes as well. Of course that family is living here and is also paying state taxes and buying products that are also taxed here in Virginia, so if you really looked at it they are actually paying much more than 21K to go to UVA that is published as the tab.</p>
<p>So youre point is just because I pay a smaller percentage to run the school I should be okay with doing so? Someone who does not have a student who attends UVA should be okay with paying a small amount to subsidize your education compared to the larger number a OOS student pays? How about we add up the last 150 years my family has lived in Virginia and paid taxes for schools like UVA and has never had a family member go to a state school. So should we go back over those 150 years and add up all of the money their families contributed to the school all of those years, a period during which the OOS students contributed nothing for running the school? No matter how small the contribution is the bottom line is people in Virginia are paying for a portion of the bill. Could not the state build a road in NOVA or Hampton Roads with 157 million dollars? Its still being spent regardless of what the percentage of operating budget it is compared to the OOS tuition, medical college or alumni donations.</p>
<p>Guillaume, please let me know where you think my logic is confusing. Also, I do not see where my statements have been contradictory. As I have said and others have mentioned, students who are truly the top students and not simply the above average ones should be able to get into UVa without a huge problem, considering the sheer size of The University. Respectfully (I can see you are probably much older than I am) I see no contradiction here.</p>
<p>It is because of people like Ronbo that UVA is not a world-renowned university. If we limit ourselves to admitting more in-state students, the name of the University will not be heard in places like Colombia, China and Turkey. My first year I had a bunch of Colombian friends, they went back home, encouraged their younger friends from their high school to apply and my second year I saw an increase in Colombian people. It is in this way that UVA, little by little gets to be known in other parts of the world (besides the Roanokes, the Lynchburgs and the Leesburgs). My other friend, whose dad ran for president in a Central-American country, not so long ago, went back to her high school (a tiny rich international school) and there has been an increase in people from that country. Let’s not whine about why UVA isn’t “known” when we are, at the same time, trying to become the next UNC and filling it with 90% in-state students. Let us look beyond the borders of VA, that’s how TJ would have liked it.</p>
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</p>
<p>You also pay taxes to pay the salaries of the legislature. Clearly, a member of your family deserves to be in the legislature. </p>
<p>I also didn’t know that a family being in Virginia for 10 or 100 generations made that family much more self-important. Sounds like ole Southern politicking to me!</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>OOS students pay taxes on goods and services they buy in Virginia, indirectly or directly
Virginian families, unlike OOS students, enjoy many benefits of the tax they pay that OOS students do not. I dunno, taxes that might be used for local and state healthcare and other state services
Having worked in Virginia, I currently pay Virginia income tax. In fact, I have paid 200 dollars income tax to the state of Virginia this year. I also stayed in the state of Virginia for the entire summer, worked for a local government in Virginia, and worked for various other private organisations (Virginian ones) </p>
<p>We also all pay federal tax, and federal funding is a bigger carrot than state funding</p>
<p>Not to mention OOS families pay tax too … and the tax paid in Maine or Florida has effects on other states (there’s this little concept called an externality – and guess what – education is a classic example of an externality)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>So by consequence they should get a //portion// reserved for themselves. No one argues with that. But why above 66%? State funding just fell; by consequence of this budget cut, OOS admission should increase.</p>
<p>1st you said this: “I’m not out to “get those OOS”. I’m simply pointing out what the concern is to people who pay the majority of the bill at UVA whether they have a student at the school or not, that being the taxpayers of the state of Virginia.”</p>
<p>Then this: "The OOS student who is paying OOS tuition to UVA is definitely paying more than an average Virginia family contributes to UVA in taxes. There is no doubt that is the case.</p>
<p>Finally this: “No matter how small the contribution is the bottom line is people in Virginia are paying for a portion of the bill.”
^^^^
How about you share a dollar figure that YOU think is fair for an OOS student to attend UVA? Do you actually want to fill the school with only in-state students?</p>
<p>“anyone who says that the school could not be filled with top notch students from Virginia is dreaming”</p>
<p>Seriously, what do YOU think is fair and how would YOU limit OOS enrollment at UVA? Please be specific.</p>
<p>I can certainly understand why parents of Virginia high school students would like their kids to be able to attend one of the Commonwealth’s outstanding public colleges. Many of the comments in this thread, however, misunderstand the reality of the General Assembly’s funding of these schools. Currently, tuition paid by in-state students, when added to the per (in-state) student contribution by the General Assembly (or taxpayers), falls far short of the total cost of educating a student. Out of state tuition significantly exceeds the total cost of educating a student. Thus, out of state students are, in fact, subsidizing the cost of in-state students, not the reverse.</p>
<p>Given the Commonwealth’s current financial difficulties, it is unlikely that the General Assembly will be increasing its funding of higher education any time soon. So any reduction in the percentage of out of state students attending Virginia public schools would only lead to increases in tuition for in-state students, or should tuition increases be limited by the General Assembly, to increases in class size and other actions that would negatively impact the quality of the education at the schools, thereby undermining the very attribute so sought after by Virginia parents. Also, the public schools are pretty aggressive in setting tuition for out of state students relative to other schools (public and private) in their peer groups, so there is a “ceiling” on out of state tuition.</p>
<p>WuTangForeva
Thanks for your massive $200 contribution to Virginia. I’m sure it went to excellent use. No “just because my family” has been here 150 years does not rate me special attention. If I was a first generation American or if my parents never went to college, or if I was a minority (by US Government standards or course), or better still an illegal immigrant, then yes I would be entitled to special consideration. Unfortunately I’m none of the above. </p>
<p>Aglages nice post.
Let’s review how this thread was started shall we? Someone posted something to the effect that our new Governor was going to “impose draconian law” on UVA because it admits roughly 30% OOS students to the school. All I have been trying to do is explain where some of the taxpayers (and by the way I’m sure there are many who are okay with the way the school is funded) feel about funding the school. As you know Aglages, we are in a very bad downturn with regard to the economy. This state is about to cut all state programs to cover the shortfall in funding. I live in a rural county that is about to lay off a large number of my friends and neighbors to help cover the shortfall. Although it is definitely not your fault (or any OOS students for that matter) the state should look at ALL of the state funded programs to see where the money will be coming from to cover the gap. Should the Governor not look at all of the state funding to determine where the cuts should come from? By the way, it may indeed turn out that those in state (that will be ME next year since I have a senior in HS now) will have to find more money to cover their share of the tuition as well. So in summary, I’m not “out to get you.” I’m simply responding to what I read on the boards about how we in Virginia are “simply a bunch of whiners” because our students did not get into UVA or that somehow “Virginia students did not work hard enough” to get into UVA. Do you believe that some students (both OOS and in state) have all the necessary credentials to go there (or any top school for that matter) and do not get accepted? Do you believe that the admissions process is 100% fair when there are not enough seats for all of applicants? Am I to assume that all of the OOS pool was academically more qualified then all of those not accepted from Virginia? Your right there Aglages, I don’t really know. Do you know if the reverse is true? Only UVA knows that answer and they will not be sharing it anytime soon.</p>
<p>With regard to “what cost would make me happy” that would be the point break where OOS students say that the cost is not worth it and go somewhere else. I guess I’m applying the real world analysis that I do when I sell the crops I grow. I set the price to move the crop. If I set it to high the buyer goes somewhere else. If I have more buyers than I can supply I probably set my price to low. Granted I’m some hick farmer from rural Virginia and do not have the benefit of the outstanding education that UVA provides, but that’s how the financial world I live in works. Perhaps someone with a PhD in economics can explain why getting a college degree is vastly different then selling soy beans. As far as I can see by any measurable statistics (record numbers of applications even adjusting for the new common application process and “fishing” by students) those OOS are continuing to apply in record numbers to UVA. I don’t think that we have reached the break point Aglages , do you? By the way just so you have the stats here they are as published on the UVA web site for the class of 2012:</p>
<p>Total number of applications: 18,531
Total number of VA apps: 7,355
Total number of OOS apps: 11,176</p>
<p>Overall offer rate: 35.7% (6,628 total offers)
Overall VA offer rate: 45.8% (3,372 offers)
Overall OOS offer rate: 29% (3,256 offers)</p>
<p>Enrollment goal: 3,170 first-year students with roughly 2,092 being from VA
There were MORE APPLICANTS FROM OOS THEN IN STATE. Interesting FACT is it not Aglages? Another good question would be what percentage of OOS students get financial aid vs. in state students. One would think the OOS percentage per student for aid would be higher based on the amount of tuition/fees paid vs. in state students. The FASA is based on income and need is it not? Shouldn’t the OOS be likely to get aid as a result? I may be way out of line (like my one of my first posts about funding percentages from Virginia). Perhaps Dean J could give me some info on that stat as well.</p>
<p>Lastly I feel the need to once again state I don’t want to boot out OOS students from our state schools. If I have somehow implied that the OOS students are less than stellar and don’t bring considerable value to the school I apologize profusely. But I am saying if it makes you or any OOS student uncomfortable that our new Governor may be looking at the process then you will have to live with it just like I will have to live with paying a percentage, however small, of someone from out of states education. That is what makes our country what it is; a place where we can question what is going on and compromise on issues. You could of course write your Virginia State representative and complain about it but if you are not a citizen of Virginia they may be less than enthusiastic helping you.</p>
<p>ConcernedinVA …thanks for the well thought out post. Dean J and aglages have has also made this excellent point regarding the fact that OOS students cover a larger percentage then in state students. I’m not saying the we can have less OOS students and maintain an even keel with regard to covering the cost of our state schools, but I can tell you if you ask an in state parent if they would rather pay $30K in state vs the $40 to $50K a private school costs they will most certainly will take the $30K option. That’s why it needs to be fully evaluated. Thanks again to all for the insightful posts. I guess the system of “Southern politicking ” I was raised in has taught me that you can have a civil discussion about a topic without resorting to name calling.</p>
<p>Sorry I missed this one from the previous post;</p>
<p>“Virginian families, unlike OOS students, enjoy many benefits of the tax they pay that OOS students do not. I dunno, taxes that might be used for local and state healthcare and other state services.”</p>
<p>That is actually a very good point that I had not thought about. Maybe the fact that the UVA Hospital pays such a large part of the cost of funding UVA is just a different way for the state to be paying more than the referenced roughly 7% of the operating budget without doing it directly? You might be on to something there WuTangForva. If the hospital is able to charge enough to cover its costs and still provide that kind of income to UVA then it appears someone is being overcharged. Perhaps it is the State of Virginia?</p>
<p>We also all pay federal tax, and federal funding is a bigger carrot than state funding.
Not to mention OOS families pay tax too … and the tax paid in Maine or Florida has effects on other states (there’s this little concept called an externality – and guess what – education is a classic example of an externality)</p>
<p>Also a nice point regarding federal taxes and the fact that some of those dollars come back to Virginia, I was wondering when someone was going to bring that up. Sorry thats a wash. Some of my tax dollars go to the state an OOS student comes from as well thereby benefiting those states. I would say that would be an even exchange of funds but that is an excellent word (externality) to use to describe the point.</p>
<p>“Perhaps someone with a PhD in economics can explain why getting a college degree is vastly different then selling soy beans.”
^^^^
Quality line. LoL</p>
<p>“There were MORE APPLICANTS FROM OOS THEN IN STATE. Interesting FACT is it not Aglages?”
^^^
I’m guessing that there are also more total students that will be freshmen in college in the other 49 states (and various counties). If the total POTENTIAL pool of OOS students is larger than that in VA, then it is no surprise that many meet UVA’s admittance standards. As a poor example: My guess is that there are more OOS students applying to Harvard than Mass. students.</p>
<p>“But I am saying if it makes you or any OOS student uncomfortable that our new Governor may be looking at the process then you will have to live with it just like I will have to live with paying a percentage, however small, of someone from out of states education.”
^^^
Doesn’t bother me at all. Similar to your parallel about selling soy beans, if the Governor’s ONLY concern is minimizing the Commonwealth Of Virginia’s contribution to UVA, then he should cut off all financial aid to both OOS and in-state students and raise tuition to the point that he has just enough PAYING students to fill the seats. Whether that kind of financial decision makes sense academically is a COMPLETELY different story.</p>
<p>“Currently, tuition paid by in-state students, when added to the per (in-state) student contribution by the General Assembly (or taxpayers), falls far short of the total cost of educating a student. Out of state tuition significantly exceeds the total cost of educating a student. Thus, out of state students are, in fact, subsidizing the cost of in-state students, not the reverse.”</p>
<p>That is an excellent point. </p>
<p>“Perhaps someone with a PhD in economics can explain why getting a college degree is vastly different then selling soy beans.”</p>
<p>The market for higher education is different from the market for soy beans for many reasons. First, a soy bean does not care which other soy beans are in the same bin. By contrast, a students experience may be profoundly affected by his or her classmates. Weak classmates slow the classs progress; strong classmates enrich the experience. Second, soy beans provide you no additional revenue after they are sold; successful alumni make gifts. There are many other differences. </p>
<p>Before we raise the out-of-state tuition, ask yourself why Harvard, with an acceptance rate below 10%, does not raise its tuition to $100,000 or more. The problem is that many full-payers would blanch. Harvard knows that its applicant pool would become smaller and weaker. Its acceptance rate would rise, its entering class would be weaker, and Harvard would fall in the USNews rankings. The more UVa raises its out-of-state tuition, and the fewer out-of-state applicants it accepts, the fewer out-of-state applicants there will be. This will lower the quality of the UVa student body. As a VA resident whose kid is about to apply to UVa, I think this would be penny wise and pound foolish. </p>
<p>Here is one final point about application rates: Application rates having been rising acros the country because students are applying to more schools on average. Part of that is fueled by the move to the common application. UVa started using the common application last year. While there are many out-of-state applications, the yield is understandably much lower.</p>
<p>“I’m guessing that there are also more total students that will be freshmen in college in the other 49 states (and various counties). If the total POTENTIAL pool of OOS students is larger than that in VA, then it is no surprise that many meet UVA’s admittance standards. As a poor example: My guess is that there are more OOS students applying to Harvard than Mass. students.”</p>
<p>So you look at the numbers of people applying as simply a statistical issue and not in any way an indicator that the education at UVA is a sought after bargain, even for the high OOS tuition costs? Sorry Agales we will just have to disagree on that one. If the cost was too high then OOS students would not come to UVA and certainly not the top notch ones we seem to be getting based on the statistics. The only way to find out would be to increase the price of the OOS tuition. Would the OOS students flee the state in large numbers or would they say that the education is worth it and stay? </p>
<p>“Doesn’t bother me at all. Similar to your parallel about selling soy beans, if the Governor’s ONLY concern is minimizing the Commonwealth Of Virginia’s contribution to UVA, then he should cut off all financial aid to both OOS and in-state students and raise tuition to the point that he has just enough PAYING students to fill the seats. “</p>
<p>I’m glad it does not bother you Agales, but it very much bothers some of the other people posting on the site. The Governor of Virginia has an obligation to serve the citizens of Virginia. I would hope he does what is best for Virginia. I know I’m old fashioned when it comes to stuff like a politician actually serving the interest of those who elected them to office , but as you say that is a COMPLETELY different story. If it was a question of “saving the most money” then we should close the school, clearly not in the states best interest or UVAs. So you say that it has to be an “all or nothing deal’´ with regard to the state funding? What if the Governor lowers the OOS student percentage to say 20% and spreads the remaining cost shortfall amongst the in state students? Would that not be break even cost wise? True, he would have to weigh the wrath of those in state students in the school right now with the fact that he opened the doors to more instate students in the future. Will he do that? I don’t know but I hope he looks at all the options even yours.</p>
<p>“Whether that kind of financial decision makes sense academically is a COMPLETELY different story. “ </p>
<p>Finally Agales, something we can agree on! It is indeed a different story with regard to the quality of the education. We may be able to analyze the cost of admitting less OOS students by using simple mathematics but what of the impact on the quality of the education? As I have said before there is a benefit to bringing students of different backgrounds to any school and that would certainly suffer if the number of OOS students declines. We would still get top notch students from OOS but less of them. Also many of these fine OOS students travel throughout the world representing UVA, and theerefore Virginia in a very positive way. See Agales even a soy bean farmer can acknowledge a fact. Would the school suddenly become second rate if more Virginias were accepted?</p>