<p>*
When I finally decided I basically said " hey, that old offer, does it still stand? *</p>
<p>LOL…good for you!</p>
<p>I think the whole proposal idea has long been more myth than reality. I don’t think I know anyone, in any generation, where the man “proposed” to the woman without some sort of pre-clearance or negotiation. (I don’t mean to say that such couples don’t exist, only that I don’t know any well enough to have heard their courtship narrative.)</p>
<p>In my parents’ case, all available evidence points to my mother having informed my father in no uncertain terms when it was appropriate for them to get engaged, and what the window was for the wedding. I’m sure that somewhere in there my father proposed, but that was just acting out his part in a ritual play. In his case – and I think in the case of many men, the “proposal” was really an acknowledgement of consent to a proposition that had been clearly proposed by their girlfriends.</p>
<p>That wasn’t quite the case for me, but when my girlfriend of three years decided to uproot herself and move across the country for the second time to follow me (and in this case incurring substantial additional debt for law school because of it), I definitely felt we were committed to each other. I couldn’t have let her do that if I wasn’t committed on my end. After that, there was a long, slow series of conversations: Should we get married, did we want to have children, what were the reasons to get married, etc.? I was more the proponent of marriage than she. At one point, I bought a ring and gave it to her, but it was sort of “We know that we are committed to one another, we know that we will probably eventually decide to get married, so we should call ourselves “engaged” – that’s the most accurate description of our status.” (I know, very romantic!) Then maybe 4-5 months later we started looking into when and where we might have a wedding if it came to that, and we wound up getting married about 15 months later, at the point when we could finally live in the same place again.</p>
<p>I would venture that indeed most couples have talked about marriage and there is an understanding about it. The “proposal” is mainly about making it official (the “now” vs. “someday”) and setting a general time frame, maybe a ceremonial act of giving a ring.</p>
<p>
My mother kept her maiden name as her middle name. I grew up thinking everyone did that.
when I got married I did the same and even used all three names for a while (one my checks and signature) eventually I just began using initializing my maiden name.
Most of my peers did this too although some used the hypen.<br>
I thought the hypen was just too cumbersome. My kids went to school with hypenated last names and most of them dropped their mother’s name from the hypen and used their father’s last name.</p>
<p><em>the proposal</em>
I agree that most couples, at least today, discuss marriage prior to “the proposal”.
Most women dream of and want a romantic proposal and ring to make it “official” – something akin to gazing out at the Grand Canyon and doing down on one knee.
Smart men would realize their is payback to this effort. ;)</p>
<p>It seems that, traditionally, it has been more of a financial (and social) benefit for women to marry. And most women want to have children and would not want to raise them alone. Most women are eager to marry and men are more reluctant. Having a wife and children has been more of an “option” and a burden for a man, and that has to be a burden he is willing to take on–since he’d be paying the bills. So it was always up to him to ask the woman. Now that women are more financially independent, things are changing–women have more power in relationships, they ask men out, pay for dates, etc. We haven’t quite made the leap to marriage proposals, though. </p>
<p>I once had a female co-worker who proposed to her H. She was pregnant, and thought she was having a miscarriage, went and had a D&C. Then, after all that, she found out that, by some miracle, she was STILL pregnant. During this time, her boyfriend had moved back in with his ex. When she called to tell him that she was still pregnant, (btw, they were both adopted and against abortion) she said “Marry me, or I’ll see you in court.” He hung up. Within an hour he showed up at her door with baby clothes. They got married a couple months later. The guy’s name was Bill, and whenever I hear “Wedding Bell Blues” ("Marry me, Bill. . .) I always think of this couple. </p>
<p>Why are so many men unwilling to commit/reluctant to propose marriage?<br>
If women are willing to live with them for years and years (I don’t get how people can’t tell if it is “right” after all that. . .) without that commitment, men have little reason to propose–they’re already receiving the benefits of marriage without commitment. (“Why buy the cow. . .”)</p>
<p>I think most couples just decide together that marriage is right for them. I can hardly imagine a proposal where the woman is surprised–unless the guy is drunk, crazy, or joking. Still, I love to hear stories of creative and romantic ways the guy presents the ring. (Didn’t happen for me–I didn’t have an engagement ring. We had a short engagement–3 1/2 mo.–and no $ so we just bought plain gold wedding bands. We always joked about getting a plastic engagement ring from a gumball machine.)</p>
<p>As for a woman taking the husband’s name, children having their father’s name–I guess it was important in certain cultures–for inheritance, support etc. to know who the father was. ( H is part of a genetic research group based on family names. When they get a name, such as H’s, that does not match any ancestral names in the group–though the genes match–they call it a “non-parental event”–most likely an illegitimate child, though it could have been an adoption or name change.) </p>
<p>I did take my H’s name–I like his name better than my hard to spell/ harder to pronounce one. IMO, it is simpler if everyone in the family has the same name. Hyphenated names are too long and awkward in most cases. I use my maiden name as my middle name (same initial, so that was convenient–just dropped the middle name.) I always feel sorry for people who have weird names (I know folks named Strange, Nutt, Roach, Dung, Mudd, etc.–I definitely would not take on a married name like that, and if I were born with one, I’d change it. I wonder why people keep names that their kids get teased about?) One of my cousins, when he got married, he and his wife BOTH changed their last names to an unrelated name that they picked out–they just liked the look and sound of it. My cousin changed his FIRST name, too, at the same time. THAT was sort of. . .different. I wonder how my uncle felt, though, since it was his only son and he gave up his distinctive ethnic name for a very generic one. (No potential heirs anyway, as the couple is “childless by choice.”)</p>
<p><ummmmm. .=“” surely=“” i’m=“” not=“” the=“” only=“” woman=“” on=“” cc=“” of=“” a=“” certain=“” age=“” who=“” did=“” proposing?=“”></ummmmm.></p>
<p>
</p>
<p>There was a surgeon at a hospital I once visited named Dr. Kill. No kidding.</p>
<p>^^^</p>
<p>LOL…I knew a Dr. Butcher!</p>
<p>Yes, I often wonder why people with names that have an “offensive” ring to them don’t change them. I’ve met someone whose last name is Smelley. I can’t imagine the teasing that person endured as a child. </p>
<p>*<ummmmm. .=“” surely=“” i’m=“” not=“” the=“” only=“” woman=“” on=“” cc=“” of=“” a=“” certain=“” age=“” who=“” did=“” proposing?=“”> *</ummmmm.></p>
<p>What did you do? And, what motivated you to do it (as opposed to waiting for the man to do so?)</p>
<p>I wonder if when the woman earns more (significantly more) money, if a man would feel odd proposing and would almost expect the woman to at least bring the subject up. Just curious.</p>
<p>In the last few years, I’ve heard of two extremely romantic, grand proposals. I’m sure in both cases that marriage had been discussed, but the guy went all out. I think humans are wired for rituals. We like them and we need them. We have rituals around death, around birth, around major milestones, around religious events. It’s a good thing, it makes us feel grounded. The proposal ritual has been around for a long time and no one has made a big push to change it. Truth be told, I think women are usually psychologically committed to the idea of marriage first and often the guy tends to take a little longer to come around so it makes a certain sense for the guy to be the one to propose. Maybe men need that ritual to solidify the step they are about to take. </p>
<p>As for the names, there are countries and cultures where children take their mother’s name. It’s tradition. I think it’s unlikely to change here and it’s already pretty confusing when you as a mom or dad are going through the school roster and trying to match parents to their kids and the mom has a different last name. It would be even harder if you didn’t know which parent might be the one with the different name. </p>
<p>What I find more interesting is what women do with their names when they remarry later in life, but had children with their first husband. For myself, I took my husband’s name when I married young. My professional name and business is associated with that name and while my daughter may change her name (I suspect she may keep her birth name for professional purposes and take her husband’s for her personal life), I have three sons with that name. I would be reluctant to change my name again if something happened to my husband and I remarried; partly because I think it would hurt my business and partly because it feels important to me to share a name with my kids. On the other hand, it seems really weird to keep the name of a former spouse if you remarry. My MIL was widowed at 49 and remarried into a long second marriage. Her name seemed to evolve. She was a teacher and she used her new name for teaching, but I don’t think she did it right away. For the most part she has gone through the rest of her life as Jane Doe (1st married name) Smith (second married name). She’s flexible. Most of the time she just uses the name of her second husband, but when it makes sense, she inserts the other name as well. At her 80th birthday party, the invitation read Jane Doe Smith. What have you known people to do?</p>
<p>Formally proposing is traditional, and it’s traditional that it be done by the man.</p>
<p>So I think that when there’s a situation where a person is going to do a formal or public proposal, it’s usually a man who does it.</p>
<p>I suspect that in cases where the subject of marriage is brought up by the woman, it usually happens in the course of discussion – perhaps many discussions. Of course, a man can bring up the topic in this way, too.</p>
<p>For my husband and me, there was no formal proposal. And I can’t remember who brought up the topic first. There were multiple conversations, after which an understanding developed that we would get married (although we waited 3 years for me to finish college). But we’re the sort of people who don’t like gimmicks – no matter how clever – and the stadium-type proposal would have appalled us both.</p>
<p>I know a lady in a 3rd marriage. She only had kids in her 2nd marriage. Though her 3rd H is a prominent businessman who doesn’t have a weird name, she kept her 2nd husband’s name–just to make it less confusing for teachers, kids friends, etc.</p>
<p>I had been visiting a friend in Europe who had recently gotten married. He said it actually was pretty cool, and got me thinking about it. (DH and I had been living together for several years at this point.) I decided I’d bring it up when I got home. </p>
<p>I picked a date several months out that I thought DH would be able to remember. We went out to eat upon my return and I said, “I think we should get married.” He said, “Sure. We will.” I then said, “I think we should get married on ______.” Did not get a definite response. In fact, I wasn’t sure of his answer until several weeks later when he slipped into the conversation at dinner at his mother’s house that we were going to get married.</p>
<p>On the other hand, it seems really weird to keep the name of a former spouse if you remarry.</p>
<p>Yes, especially if the earlier marriage ended in divorce. </p>
<p>I know someone who did just that just to spite her ex-husband’s new wife. They all worked at the same hospital (doctor husband left first wife for the second wife). The second wife would seethe when she’d hear the first wife referred to as Mrs. Johnson (even though the first wife had later remarried.) There was nothing the second wife could do. A first wife has the right to keep her married name.</p>
<p>Funny story around the name change issue (with all the names changed):</p>
<p>My wife’s father’s name was Gold, and she and most of her sisters go by Gold. Her oldest sister, however, changed her name to Silver when she married Joe Silver straight out of college. The marriage really only lasted a couple of years (Joe had a little fidelity problem, and as an academic he had almost limitless opportunities for the problem to express itself), but she got her PhD and began her career as Silver, and didn’t actually get divorced until she was about to give birth to Platt’s child. She married Platt (practically in the labor & delivery ward), but continued her adult life as Silver. Her kids were named Platt.</p>
<p>16 years later, I’m looking through a book of family photos with my eldest Platt niece, aged 16. She looks at a set of pictures of her mother all dressed up (a rare event) and says, “What’s going on in THOSE pictures?” “Uh, that’s your mother’s first wedding?” “MY MOTHER WAS MARRIED BEFORE?!!?” “Um, didn’t you ever wonder how she got named Silver when you are Platt and all of her sisters are Gold?” “NOOOOOO! Who else knew about this?”</p>
<p>JHS, that is a great story. My SIL married husband #1 and then went through the divorce from hell and talked about him like he was her sworn enemy. But she kept his name, I assume because her two kids had that name. Then she married husband #2 and continued with the name of husband #1 even after she had another child with the second husband. No big surprise, that marriage ended in divorce. And now she still has the name of husband #1. All of which makes the case for a woman never changing her name in the first place I suppose.</p>
<p>JHS that is too funny.</p>
<p>Somebody earlier in the thread was saying that it makes no sense to them when the woman keeps her name, but the children have the husband’s name. I don’t get why that would be confusing. It seems like it goes on the assumption that the children are more a part of their mother than their father, and therefore that they should have whatever identity their mother takes on or keeps. </p>
<p>I personally gave my daughter my partner’s last name because we discussed it, and I felt like since I got to be close to her by having her in my body for nine months, he could then be close to her by giving his name to her. Also, though I would never change my name – I feel like it’s ME – aesthetically I do think his last name is nicer.</p>
<p>I hyphenated our last names for a long time- even though my MIL gave me alot of grief over it.
My last name was actually my fathers * step-fathers* name, and he intended according to my brother to change it back to his birth father’s name before he died.
My brother actually * changed* his last name to our father’s, father’s name, while he was in the service.
Which must have been a PITA.
( the step father never adopted him)
So anyway, I was never really that attached to my maiden name, although I do currently use it as my middle name & use my husbands name for my last name, as I also think it is more unusual. ( but not weird)</p>
<p>I know lots of people, including friends who are in their 70’s who have their own name ( often they are with their 2nd husband or they married after late 20’s).</p>
<p>I also know couples who merged their last names and they each use a combination of the two.
( gotta keep those Mormons on their toes!)</p>
<p>I think women should keep their names. I find the changing of name a little old fashioned. I also don’t think that the kids should get hyphenated names (their mother’s surname belongs to her father, grandfather, etc). I think the kids should get their fathers name. I wont agree to given my kids a hyphenated surname, they “belong” to me not my in-laws. However, I wouldn’t mind then adopting their mother’s first name as their middle name.</p>
<p>I know of a custom of naming kids whereby the kids get their father’s first name as their surnames.</p>