@ahl I think you are right that rating them in return would not solve the underlying issue of lack of respect. I do think it might reduce the number of occurrences though. But most women would never do that – for the vast majority of us it is not in our basic nature to be that unkind. And I do think there are many more women than men who factor personality and intelligence into their equation of overall attractiveness. I know I do.
But the irony of it all can be maddening. Toward the end of the election campaigning a certain ex-governor who later went on to be Chief of Staff under the elder George Bush, stood at a public podium on T.V. and made a really disparaging remark about HRC’s looks. I was startled by the viciousness of the comment but was also thinking to myself “this guy has got to be seriously kidding, has he ever looked in the mirror?”
I do think our reluctance to push back contributes to a certain lack of self-awareness on the part of men – it has gone unchallenged for so long that it never enters their minds that they might not have the standing to cast stones.
While admittedly, also participating in bad behavior is neither mature nor classy, it can be far more empowering to be on the attack and responding in kind, than to be an embarrassed, blushing victim. And it’s a lot more fun
I have found that facing bullies with confidence and retaliation stops the action far more quickly than just enduring it with one’s head down.
I may have also acted like an idiot, but it’s worth trying different things to see what works. It’s all about keeping your confidence. Never let anyone take away your mojo, baby!
For me, powerful men in the public eye criticizing a female peer’s appearance rather than something more substantive is puzzling. Why do that? How does it relate back to the office scoring or construction site wolf whistles? To me it just looks like bullying.
Then I wonder how we can best educate bullies. Giving them a taste of their own medicine is sometimes advised. I don’t favor it myself. Others advocate the victims figure out what they are doing to incite the bully and limit those behaviors.
Ridicule and shaming can be successful. Maybe it’s the right approach. Maybe it just makes folks resentful and they lash out even harder when given the opportunity.
Harvest Moon: I have no real idea here
Adding: cross posted with BD. I had the luxury of leaving jobs in which I was disrespected, and the privilege of stating my reasons for doing so. That isn’t the norm. I understand that. I was really fortunate. My work experiences were easy compared to what most of you experienced.
I think it is bullying, and also being uncomfortable with women in traditionally male workplaces. As women get more integrated into these situations, I think harassment becomes less common.
@alh I think it really has to come from those with seniority — both men and women. But senior women have been through it and know what young women in academia deal with and the fact that it is unrealistic/naive to think that they can speak up without consequences. At least, what I have seen over the years is that there were consequences to speaking up. I never dealt with it myself but I know of a number of cases.
I was one of those who developed very early. I was already 5’8" when I entered high school and 6’ by about junior year. I started getting unwanted attention by the time I was 10 since I looked much older.
I was very pretty but I was very much a tomboy. I wore baggy clothes to not attract attention and was quick to shut down anyone who tried to flirt with me or whatever.
My 5 year old sister was also an early developer. She had a DD chest halfway through high school. She’s also a no-nonsense person and I learned how to shut down men from her.
Since starting a treatment that has caused me to rapidly put on a LOT of weight, I have noticed a dramatic change in how men look at me and interact with me. It’s been almost an interesting social experiment.
When I worked for the state government as an undergrad, a new position was created for a friend of the governor’s that became my boss’ boss. He immediately instituted a new dress policy that made it so that essentially women could only wear skirts/dresses. And he was going to do spot checks to make sure the dress code was being followed.
The managers immediately revolted and the policy was changed within weeks but still. I couldn’t believe that would happen in the 2010s.
My job wasn’t at risk. I worked in an industry that needed competence.
Shaming or ridicule aren’t the only effective responses. My advice to my girls began with Just Say No. It starts with not tolerating it, knowing to say No. (I’m referring to the mindset that does not accept this invasive behavior from others, understands one’s own dignity. From there, one can choose options.)
In one case at work, where we had an intl employee who was a Handy Andy, I literally said a loud NO! after the xth time he patted me on the backside. No. He was contrite, very embarrassed (and I believed his explanation of a cultural difference. Unless you need it, I’ll spare details.) He never did it again to me or any other woman in that work group.
@intparent - I am so sorry that your daughter had to experience this. It is my deepest wish that she land an amazing fellowship working for the academic arch-rival of professor icky and that her subsequent publications go on to make her outshine the creep many times over.
@jonri It blows my mind that there is still institutional harassment in 2017. I doubt we will ever stomp out the individual boorish behavior by a select few, but I would hope that we can stamp it out in a institutional way.
I finally caught up with her on the phone to ask a few more questions. The only info she added is that the prof grabbing the name tag was clearly drunk when it happened. She doesn’t plan to do anything (report, etc). She is an adult – that is her perogative, even if it isn’t what I might do.
@intparent thanks for the update. She needs to do what she feels comfortable doing. Hopefully she can put this behind her and move on.
thanks for sharing this experience with us. It provided a wonderful platform for discussion and hopefully a few other young woman have or will see this thread and it will be helpful.
If your daughter does not want to contact anyone at the university in question, I suggest that she talk with a physics prof who knows her, at the university where she is. That person can place a call to the chair of the department where the incident occurred.
Thankfully, during the period that I chaired our department, I never had to field a call of this type (plenty of other issues, though). But I know that our current chair has recently had to deal with a somewhat similar situation–not as egregious, but not good. He was called by a faculty member elsewhere.
Given the extreme under-representation of women in physics, this sort of incident is deeply troubling.
^^^I actually was surprised. I could see it happening at an in-house function, but surprised to hear about it happening at a function where prospective students, many of them minors with parents in tow, are present.
