My rebellious younger daughter

romanigypsyeyes · March 12, 2010, 11:11pm

I guess I’m “rebellious” like your daughter.

My mum got me into dance when I was 3. Did the whole ballet thing for 10 years before I realized it was not where my heart was at. My dad got me into softball at 5 and basketball at 8. Those were my real passion. My mum always encouraged me to do whatever my heart told me so I didn’t feel bad when I told her that I was quitting ballet to do sports year-round. I couldn’t imagine going behind my mum’s back because I knew that she would support me whatever I did (dance/sports related).

Oldfort, it sounds like your D was worried about disappointing you so she went to dad.

For those of you who think that this is a marital problem, I think it is nowhere near a marital “problem”. Children are allowed to confide in one parent with the trust that that parent won’t tell the other one. For example, I’ve always had a closer relationship with my dad and when I was really struggling with depression with school I went to him with the trust that he wouldn’t tell my mum. As far as I know, he never told her (and she’s pretty critical so I think she would have tried to “talk” to me if he had told her). That’s NORMAL to want to go to one parent over the other and to ask that parent not to tell the other one.

Oldfort, good for your daughter! I wish her well in track (a sport I never understood lol).

starbright · March 12, 2010, 11:29pm

I don’t see this as rebellious at all. I don’t even see the hurt feelings exactly. And self-examination doesn’t usually involved details like how many steps to a hurdle compared to other girls. So it seems its more a post about the details about how great your daughter is (and I say nothing wrong with that on here! no excuses needed!). I’m just sayin’.

You are blessed to have ‘problems’ like this one. Oy.

cbreeze · March 12, 2010, 11:31pm

Actually, excelling in track would be a bigger hook in college admissions than ballet. How many ballet troupes are there in college ?

My husband has always run track, was captain of his college track team and he thought it was a big hook for his medical school acceptances back in the days.

oldfort · March 12, 2010, 11:40pm

starbright - when I wanted to brag about my kid, I have done so shamelessly. I am not one for modesty. But you and I have never seen eye to eye on many things, and that’s ok. Frankly, I don’t understand your way of life any more than you would of mine.

morrismm · March 13, 2010, 1:51am

oldfort–I think I understand what you are going through on several levels.

First-- I would feel like my D and H went behind my back. This would upset me. I would probably be more annoyed at my H. But he may not get the whole scheduling thing. I guess it is time to talk to both…

I also understand the dance/ sport conflict. Dance is just as demanding as any sport, and it is considered an art form. There is a draw to sports for students because of the attention. This might be what your D is experiencing.

So your discussion w/ your D about her main focus was right on target. What is important to her.

Previous threads said your D’s start at 3 yrs. old was your decision not hers. They obviously do not have D’s with opinions. My D started dance at 5. She loved every dance class, recital, show + until this day @22 yrs plus. She also excelled at sports, especially soccer and volleyball. It was a tug for her for awhile, but she gave up sports. She could have chosen to give up dance.

mousegray · March 13, 2010, 2:01am

I don’t really understand the hurt feelings if your child is close to her father (not just you, oldfort, I mean everyone else who posted likewise). I’m thrilled when I see evidence of closeness between either of my kids and their Dad. Maybe because I was never able to have that kind of relationship with my own father, so I enjoy it vicariously through my kids. It’s very good for daughters to have that kind of support from their father, so you will actually benefit in the long run by having strong, independent grown daughters!

Northstarmom · March 13, 2010, 2:02am

I’m guessing that she went around your back because she correctly believed that if she told you she wanted to do track, you’d have discouraged her or forbidden her from doing so.

Yes, it’s true that she may no longer be able to pursue ballet. Truth is, however, that apparently she’s not that interested in ballet any more. I agree with others that in most cases when kids start activities at age 3, the parents are the ones more interested in those activities than are the kids. There are exceptions, but usually those are rare. Sometimes the kids initially were interested, but then became interested in other things, but continued with the first activity because they didn’t want to let their parents down.

I empathize with you in that older S, 26, is a very gifted writer and had been a published writer from age 8. However, now, he doesn’t write any more, and tonight, he was proudly telling me that he expects to be offered a permanent position in a corporation where he’d start at the bottom --by operating one of those little vehicles that move large containers. Not exactly what I’d hoped a gifted, artistically-included offspring would be doing at age 26, but it’s his life, not mine…

Anyway, I don’t view your daughter as being rebellious, just as trying to forge her own path and do a normal and healthy separation from you as your daughter goes about the process of growing up.

calmom · March 13, 2010, 3:19am

I think this is exactly why your daughter didn’t discuss the choice with you. She didn’t want to hear that very predictable lecture from you.

I find it ironic that she seems to be good at hurdles, since you seem so adept at placing hurdles in front of her.

It is her problem, not yours, to decide how to prioritize the two activities. It is something she will have to work out for herself, with her track coach, and with her ballet teachers. She may or may not have to choose one “major” activity and have the other take a “back seat”.

My daughter was a dancer and pretty much spent her whole life juggling multiple commitments because of the choices she made… but I got out of the way and let her deal directly with the teachers when she was around age 6. Sometimes she didn’t get what she wanted – she had to give up a role in a performance or participating in a particular recital because of her inability to commit to a rehearsal schedule. On other occasions, I was amazed at how far people went to accommodate her – for example, there were times when the studio changed the time it offered a particular class just so she could attend. It really depended on how much they wanted her for her skills. I also saw my daughter multitask in some amazing ways.

I understand that you feel hurt that you were left out – but it seems to me that your first impulse has been to p*** in her soup. Sorry for being so blunt, but do you really think your daughter is so stupid that she doesn’t know what the spring rehearsal schedule is like at her studio, when she’s been dancing since age 3?

Her ballet teachers probably won’t like her doing track. That’s their problem, not hers – but she’ll get enough grief from them without you chiming in.

If your daughter is one of the top dancers at the studio, they’ll figure a way to accommodate her schedule, because they will want to have her in the productions. If not… they’ll stand firm and she’ll make a choice at the appropriate time.

Same with track: if the coach thinks she is a particular asset to the team, then accommodations will be made because of her schedule. The coach will rationalize that the ballet training is obviously working and allow her to continue to cross-train. If she isn’t doing well at meets – or if she isn’t showing up to them – then she’ll end up being told that she has to attend practice more regularly or be cut from the team.

But you aren’t even willing to give her the chance to find out. Right away, a couple of weeks into it – you are telling her that she has to make a choice.

I’m sorry to be so harsh with my post. Again, as a dance mom I know that it can be hard for the parent to let go of the dream. But its your kid’s life, not yours – and at the high school level, you need to let your daughter make her own choices. Without the “talk”.

(If I accept your own words as to what you said, then the “talk” sounds to me a lot more like intentional sabotage – by insisting that she make a “choice” at the outset you are undermining her opportunity to explore and develop a new interest. There is no way that she could possibly know what to prioritize when she is just starting with track.)

From your own posts, I think your daughter was right to go to her dad. I think its pretty obvious that she correctly anticipated that you would be unsupportive and lay out a bunch of conditions – whereas dad was willing to buy the shoes right away.

One other note: its kind of nice when kids have multiple activities and can split them between the parents. That is, I was a ballet mom, I bought pointe shoes, I sewed costumes, I helped out back stage – it was fun for me and fun for my daughter. But it didn’t give much room for her to develop much of a relationship with her dad. There were times when there were different activities that became “his” – and I felt good that she was able to spend time and share with him. So I think you really should be happy that your daughter is taking up an activity that her dad probably relates to better and feels better about participating in. (I mean face it, most guys don’t really enjoy attending ballet recitals, but I’ve never met a guy who had a problem with the concept of sitting in the bleachers watching a sports event – if track meets aren’t your cup of tea, then this really may be a great daddy-daughter bonding opportunity).

poetgrl · March 13, 2010, 7:35am

My D is gifted at both soccer and basketball. You’d think that wouldn’t be a conflict, right? I mean, soccer in the warm months and basketball in the winter. But, actually, at a certain level, all sports are played year round. This year, for the first time, my D had to actually choose which sport would be her focus.

I knew this was coming and tried to prepare her for it over the past couple of years. “Eventually, you’re going to have to decide,” I said. In the meantime, both sports suffered to a certain extent. No matter where she was, she was also supposed to be someplace else. (Even in 7th and 8th grade)

So, this spring, before AAU basketball started, I did have to sit down with her and tell her she was going to have to let one of her coaches know she would be focusing on the other sport and please not to put her on the top squad…that she’d like to play, still, cuz, of course they want her, but she can’t be top squad in both, it’s just not physically possible for her to be in both places enough of the time.

She was really sad about this. And some of her friends who she loves are playing, for the first time, on a different team in the same club, and I know, at times, she feels left out. Monday morning parenting of other people’s kids is always easy. But, the reality is that teaching them how to make a committment is not.

Sorry your daughter got to the point where she has to choose. Sorry you had to be the one to tell her. (I think that should have been the dad’s job, imho.) Good luck.

oldfort · March 13, 2010, 9:44am

I am pretty comfortable with my parenting. I belief in commitment. As an adult, especially as a woman, I’ve had to make choices through out my life, and understand I could never have it all. When my kids were younger, I decided to let my career take a back seat, and many of my friends made MDs when I am just getting there now. Five years ago I decided to go back to work full time and asked my husband be more of a primary caretaker. In each case, everyone involved was well informed and I didn’t pull anything over anyone’s eyes. But each time I have always felt a tinge of guilt or lost, and I’ve had to cope with it. Yes, this episode did highlight the fact that I am not around as much as I used to be, and there is a price to pay, but luckily I have my H to be there for D2 when I couldn’t.

Someone pointed out that the reason D2 didn’t discuss it with me initially was probably because she knew what I was going to say and she didn’t want to hear the same lecture. The poster may have thought it was harsh, but I was actually glad to hear of it because it showed what I’ve been trying to instill my girls is paying off. She may already know at some point that she would have to make a choice and it’s never pleasant to have to do that, and she wanted sometime to figure out which one she wanted to choose. I am fine with that. My talk with her was just to bring it to her attention again, just in case she wasn’t thinking about it. Yes, I do give the same lecture to my kids over and over again, sometimes it’s not what they want to hear, but it’s consistent.

I think some people are projecting their own feelings or family situation into how I was feeling or how unsupportive I am of D2 moving away from ballet. She decided that she didn’t want to go to ballet intensive this summer and she is going to Putney summer program instead, no disagreement from me. She decided to drop violin and focus on piano, no disagreement from me. Not to psycho analyze this too much, but I wouldn’t be surprised if she is having a hard time herself about moving away from ballet. She is projecting that feeling on to me, her mother. It’s always easier to make the mother out to be the bad guy. I have no more vested interest in dance than her. She is a beautiful dancer, but she will never be able make it as a professional ballet dancer, and it’s never going to be her career.

I have been on this forum long enough to know how harsh people could be sometimes. I posted this because I think there probably are other parents going through the same thing and I am always interested in different point of views. I pick up what’s useful and discard what’s not. I thank you for the support I have received from some of you.

sax · March 13, 2010, 9:49am

Hi Oldfort.

My feelings would also be hurt.

You will need to tell your D and H that your feelings were hurt and ask them why you were left out. HERE IS THE HARD PART. When they tell you why you can’t argue. This is their perception, their reality of you. It is their truth.

THE EASY PART: The track coach and ballet teacher will be the ones to decide if they are even willing to have half of her on their team. Let them tell her and let her decide what to do. You don’t have to be the bad guy here. You can be the support when she has to decide because someone else told her to. On the other hand they might work out a compromise. Who knows.

Ballet has made her a great team member. Track can give her the opportunity to learn new life lessons.

Picture yourself in the stands cheering her on as she flies down the track. Picture her elation as she wins a race and feels that great sense of personal satisfaction of being the best at something on this day at this time because of how hard she prepared and her athletic gifts. What a blast!

Good Luck!

cross post w/ oldfort

Pea · March 13, 2010, 10:37am

Not the coaches I know. I think there will be some problems the first time there is overlap. It is best to sort out the scheduling conflicts sooner rather than later.

I enjoyed the part about the number of steps between hurdles. It was interesting.

Could be!

calmom · March 13, 2010, 6:33pm

But the point is that the daughter can do the sorting working directly with the coach & ballet teacher. Certainly the d. should not wait to the last minute – it needs to be addressed as soon as the d. is aware of a direct conflict – but it would be difficult to make the decision when the d. is just starting with a new sport.

As I said, my experience has been that the degree of flexibility and willing to accommodate has been directly related to my d’s perceived value in whatever activity she was engaged in. If she was the “best” at something – they wanted her there, even if it meant bending a whole lot of rules or rescheduling rehearsals and practice sessions. Sometimes she was the best; more often not.

Oldfort’s daughter really needs more time on the track team before she will know where she stands there. The coach is likely to be flexible at the outset if she seems like a valued addition to the team – whereas things may change down the line, for better or worse, depending on her performance at track meets. I suppose that at the other end of the extreme - if the coach decides that she is unlikely to win events – the coach might also be flexible simply because then the coach wouldn’t really care whether she shows up or not. It’s not the olympics – if she shows up, she can run the race --if not, then maybe there’s no great loss to the team anyway.

sopranomom92 · March 13, 2010, 7:32pm

Oldfort, of course we don’t know the family dynamics, but it really could be just stereotypes: in D’s mind, sports are more a “dad” thing, ballet more a “mom” thing? Also, did dad happen to be more available after school in those weeks than mom was? Either way, I do agree with you: one or the other will likely need to take a back seat. But not for the reasons I’ve heard so far. As a professional dance teacher (ballet et al), my experience has been that students who attempt to do track and ballet simultaneously get injured. The training, daily preparation and use of muscles is so different that extreme soreness is common. That in and of itself won’t cause injuries, but a dancer with sore body parts will compensate in other ways, and won’t move efficiently, thereby stressing joints and muscles she wouldn’t ordinarily use in that way. Honestly, I believe that vigorous training in track is counterproductive to ballet, and vice versa. While her past training is no doubt helping her in track now, I’m convinced that it would only cause problems for her in track–too much stretching of the hamstrings, too much outward rotation of the hip socket. So, physically, it might be a bad idea to try to do both at a high level. And yes, the dance director and the track coach are in competition, and not just for your D’s time. I remember one young lady holding back a lot in dance class, ie, no jumps, no grand plies, because her knee hurt, yet she was competing in track meets. It says to the teacher that track is more important than your dance class…which is somewhat acceptable if it’s only class, but if it’s rehearsal or performance, that’s an entirely different matter. The truth is that participation in a track team or in dance performance requires tremendous commitment, and we do our kids a disservice if we imply that it is possible to do EVERYTHING really well at the same time. In the case of track and ballet, the potential for injury is huge. If it were ballet and swimming, or martial arts, less so. If she’s enjoying the track, she’ll likely lighten up pretty quickly on the ballet. Besides, does she really have time to do two plus hours daily of track practice AND a daily hour and a half ballet class, and do homework, eat and sleep? If she’s not in daily ballet class then she’s very part time in dance already, so it might not make much difference.

Anyone who has been taking dance classes since the age of 3 is likely to have very mixed feelings about quitting, or even slowing down. She loves it, no doubt. Since you’ve said that she does not plan to become a ballet dancer, she may need “permission” to stop or slow down. But to continue both at a high level will likely make each activity less fulfilling, and could be injurious. If she decides to stop ballet during track season, she can go back to it later if she wants. Sure, she’ll be a little sore, but after a few weeks she’d be fine. Her feet might take a bit longer to get back in shape, particularly if she dances en pointe, but so what. You only live once. You also only get one body. The replacement knees and hips aren’t nearly as good as the originals! ;)

I have to strongly disagree with those who recommend total flexibility on the part of the coaches/dance teachers. Too much potential for injury and conflict/confusion for the daughter. I will imagine that the dance teacher can already see a big difference (negative) in the daughter’s dancing. One cannot be a slave to two masters. If a coach doesn’t care whether or not a team member shows up…I don’t even want to go there… :/

Oldfort, probably a large part of your feeling badly is all mixed up in the change in your lifestyle with you working more, being home less. But what a wonderful opportunity for your D and H to become very close. It’s all good!

Naturally · March 13, 2010, 7:34pm

Why didn’t you leave the situation alone and let your daughter decide/discover if her schedule demanded that she drop or lessen one of her activities? I’m sure it would’ve become to clear to her that she didn’t have enough time, if that is indeed the case. Instead, you set yourself up as the bad guy again and made it your decision, instead of allowing it to be her decision.

oldfort · March 13, 2010, 8:15pm

I have been a ballet mom for over 10 years, and I know enough about ballet to be in total agreement with sopranomom. My kids were not allowed to ski or play tennis (side movements on feet were not good). I also am not in the camp of asking for special treatment just because one is more talented. I don’t mind being the bad guy if it’s good for my kid.

I picked up D2 from ballet today (H normally did that) and we are having a girls day out tomorrow (lunch and shopping). She is off for spring break next 2 weeks. She said she will think about it over the break. D1 is also coming home in a week and we are going away on vacation. Maybe it would be easier for her to discuss it with her older sister.

sopranomom - thank-you for your long post. It is nice that H and D2 are close. Yes, I do feel left out sometimes. Maybe that’s how H feels about D1 and me sometimes.

calmom · March 13, 2010, 10:10pm

But Oldfort, you also wrote, “She is a beautiful dancer, but she will never be able make it as a professional ballet dancer”. Same boat here.

I understand why it is a very bad thing for development of ballet muscles to engage in activities which build or stretch tendons and muscles in a different way – but other than possible fears of injury, I don’t quite see the importance of that concern for the student who does not have career aspirations in dance. In ballet, career pressures come early – by the time the student is age 12, if not sooner, they are likely to be enrolled in a studio with a program designated “pre-professional”. Many ballerinas start their careers with a professional company at age 16 or 17. College plans and professional ballet aspirations don’t mix well – age 20 is generally too late for a woman to embark on a professional ballet career.

All that stuff about bones and muscle development is part of the reason – 15 year old female bodies can be shaped and molded to their craft in a way that doesn’t work for 25 year old bodies.

It’s natural for a ballet teacher who comes from a professional background or who works at a studio affiliated with a professional company to see things in that context. But those concerns may not really be appropriate for the student who doesn’t have professional aspirations. I mean… so what if the student doesn’t develop the proper turnout, if the only place she will ever dance is at studio recitals? She doesn’t have to be the very best dancer she can be, if she is only dancing for fun.

I also have to say – as much as I relished watching my daughter in first position arabesque… I also know all along that dancing en pointe was absolutely horrible for her feet. I always had mixed feelings from the time she sewed the ribbons on her first pair of pointe shoes – part of me thought how beautiful she looked, and part of me was reminded of the ancient practice of Chinese foot binding. So I was glad that my daughter also spent time with other forms of dance, particularly those (like modern) where she danced barefoot.

The physical characteristics of a ballerina that Sopranomom references – such as “outward rotation of the hip socket”-- are not normal. Its simply not the way that female bodies are meant to develop. So if something has to give between a set of activities – the healthier choice is probably the sport or activity that exercises the body in the way that human bodies are designed to move. Whether or not jumping hurdles in track fits that definition I don’t know – my daughter was a gymnast for awhile and that has its own set of problems – but my point is that as a parent, if there is a conflict, I would want to see my own daughter opting for the path that is going to mean the least long-term negative health consequences. I love dance. I love dancers. But I’m not all that fond of seeing my kid in pain.

boysx3 · March 14, 2010, 11:28am

It’s pretty clear to me that the daughter went into track with her eyes open and thus has already made her feelings clear…if she were so committed to ballet, she wouldn’t be exploring track. She will always love dance, but it’s obvious that she wants to expand her life options.

Was D going to be a dance major in college?

Pea · March 14, 2010, 1:01pm

Yes. When I ran on the track team there was no distinction made between the members who were more valuable because they won races and the member who were less valuable because they didn’t. Everyone was expected to show up at all practices and meets and if the best runners didn’t show up to a practice they were in the same trouble as anyone else who didn’t show up. We all knew who was going to win the races and we enjoyed watching them compete but all members of the team were valued.

Digression here. I’ve had the pleasure of observing some really fine track and cross-country coaches and the one thing they had in common was knowing the enormous benefitsto be gained from working at their sport. They enjoyed the really gifted athletes of course. But they also knew that the kids at the back of the pack were the ones who were really gaining from the hard work. The really good coaches encourage all of the participants and they come by it sincerely.

Pizzagirl · March 14, 2010, 1:31pm

Agree. It seems like she already knows dropping ballet would disappoint you. That’s not a good way for a kid to approach EC’s. She should drive the process.

What’s “good for your kid” is what she wants. So what she won’t be a ballerina? You seem awfully enmeshed in this.

My rebellious younger daughter

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