<p>D.T.,</p>
<p>Point taken, i was responding to certain posts which seem to imply that FASS is/was a dumping ground, which to me is a sweeping generalization. Defensive much? </p>
<p>it’s true that it’s good to distinguish yourself with a 1st class/2nd upper honours regardless of where you end up.</p>
<p>Sorry if this is considered hijacking the thread, but I’m looking for information regarding transferring From NUS.
(My other threads: <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/transfer-students/506784-transferring-national-university-singapore.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/transfer-students/506784-transferring-national-university-singapore.html</a> & <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/international-students/506781-transferring-national-university-singapore.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/international-students/506781-transferring-national-university-singapore.html</a>)</p>
<p>I’ll probably be matriculating in FASS later this year as my interest is in Psychology. Here are some questions I have:</p>
<p>1) Public perception of FASS seems to be rather negative in Singapore; how well regarded is FASS/NUS in general internationally? What is the minimum CAP I should be aiming for? (Note: I’ll be trying to transfer into both US & UK universities)</p>
<p>2) What are class sizes in FASS like? Will it be hard to get to know professors in my first year (for good recommendations)?</p>
<p>3) Will my EC involvement in NUS be an important criteria for a successful transfer?</p>
<p>Feel free to share any other advice/pointers you might have.</p>
<p>fass IS full of individuals who simply couldn’t make it to other academic programmes and courses; no one ever claimed that it was EXCLUSIVELY so. i understand the bias, and recognise the opportunities available to a student there, that shouldnt detract from a honest discussion of admisisons standards.</p>
<p>I am studying in a CBSE school in India.What should be my overall percentage in my 12th board exams to get into NUS?I didnt do too well in 10th,so do they also see 10th grade marks?</p>
<p>Anomandaris</p>
<p>Please refer to my post #148 on this tread. For where I’m coming from and credentials, also refer to post #148.</p>
<p>NUS on the whole is well-regarded internationally, whether the school is over-rated is another matter, generally speaking, US universities do see NUS graduates as serious academic students. As for how well-regarded each faculty is…it would be like grasping in thin air to even venture a guess. Honestly, NUS is not in the league of U.Penn or Princton where there are really distinguished departments such as Wharton (business) and Mathematics (think John Forbes Nash).</p>
<p>Having said that, for the diligent student, NUS is a very good starting point for a academic career (if that’s what you want). It provides a stronger basic foundation than most US colleges, contrary to what most Singaporeans think.</p>
<p>Furthermore, I have never heard of transfer from NUS to a US or UK college, though I’m not saying it can’t be done, I’m just skeptical of the possibility.</p>
<p>A final observation: It seems to me that undergrad studies in Singapore and the US are two very different ball-game. To put it bluntly, US undergrads think they are highly stressed and overworked in the pursuit of an A to put on their transcript, but they would pale in comparison to the work ethics of Asian students from Japan, Korea, China, India etc. This is why I mentioned the possibility of stronger foundations at NUS. The US cultural emphasis on social life (read pubs and clubs) and ‘college experience’ has unfortunately pre-determined a less competitive academic atmosphere when compared to certain Asian universities.</p>
<p>The exceptional American student will of course still learn a great deal and get a good grounding in whatever he/she pursues. However, he/she may have to overcome/resist an environment that may impede the wanted progress. In NUS, however, I would say the overall environment might provide a greater impetus to excel academically than most US colleges, and hence you might come off being a stronger graduate school candidate.</p>
<p>The fact is: US and UK universities are prestigious not because they provide great undergrad education, they are prestigious because the people who made the atomic bomb and discovered black holes reside in them to get funding for research, and most often not to teach. And even if they do teach, they mostly concentrate their effort on graduate students, thus it is of little purpose to flock to these universities if you’re aiming for a quality undergrad education. </p>
<p>If you have no intention of being a graduate student…read post #148, you may find NUS a wiser and more cost-effective option.</p>
<p>limnieng, thank you for taking the time to make such a detailed response</p>
<p>I have no doubts that NUS provides a rigorous education which will allow me to build up strong academic foundations. However, I have genuine concerns regarding the employability of a FASS graduate. I will admit that I have little experience in the real working world; the preconception I have is strongly influenced by hearsay from my parents (mainly) & other sources: that employers show a relatively strong bias towards foreign graduates. Perhaps employers value the ability to do well despite the need to “overcome/resist an enviroment that may impede the wanted progress”? (Note: Would like to learn your opinion on this, as mine has been built on flimsy ground)</p>
<p>Now, given that</p>
<p>1) I may not wish to have a career in academia (undecided as of now)
2) I will pursue graduate studies (pretty much needed for a practicing Psychologist)
3) Money will not be a problem starting from next year (don’t ask ;] )</p>
<p>Is my decision to attempt for a transfer still unadvisable? (Note: I’m not so naive as to think that gaining admission into a more prestigious university will magically improve my job prospects … I fully intend to work hard for good grades no matter where I end up)</p>
<p>That said, I’m rather worried about your skepticism regarding a transfer from NUS. Does NUS have a policy against transferring out … or is there some other difficulty (apart from the normal challenges international transfer applicants face) I’m not aware of?</p>
<p>Note that US universities are very diverse, ranging from huge state colleges like UMich to oddball colleges like Deepsprings. There will definitely be party schools, with “environments that may impede the wanted progress”, but there are also schools like Reed, Swarthmore and Uchicago in the States, so do your research, and choose your environment.You will definitely be able to find someplace where you will fit.</p>
<p>NUS on the other hand, range from Medicine to FASS. Within the FASS, there are the bare-minimum masses and the dedicated few. Not really much choice, I think. </p>
<p>On the other hand, there’s this joint degree program between the FASS and UNC-Chapel Hill. It’s only limited to 5 majors I think. Economics and history are two of them; don’t think psychology is though. </p>
<p>And a last word: do check out the faculty and their research interests–it may define your college career.</p>
<p>Anomandaris, it’s just that it’s quite rare for NUS students to actually transfer to US universities. Maybe it’s because the educational system at NUS is quite different from the one you find at US colleges (and the course structures are probably quite different as well) which should make transferring messier than usual. </p>
<p>But that’s just me speculating- I suggest you check out the transfer policies for the US colleges you are planning on. I don’t think NUS has any policies against transferring, but you might check on that as well. Oh and most helpful would be if you could find someone who has actually transferred out of NUS, but judging from the reaction here that might be too much to hope for.</p>
<p>Anomandaris</p>
<p>Well, I totally agree with limnieng
Not to be discouraging, but at your current level, I think it’s too late to transfer to the US, let alone getting into any of the prestigious schools. It’s good to see the ambitious side of you, trying to free yourself from NUSs (or SGs edu) system, but what do you plan on accomplishing?
Unless you are in a scholarship program, or you are in the whatever tru train program (apologies, I forgot the name, but I know many people from RGS and whatsoever, are coming to UC Berkeley next Spring), I suggest that you stay in SG and complete the edu in NUS, at least for the undergrad.</p>
<p>I certainly believe that you have the grades as well as the foundation to excel in most of the top schools here in US, but the problem on transferring is not with you, it is with the US; they live in their own little bubble. And lets face the truth: almost no one here in US knows what NUS is, how good it is, or even what an A level is unless they deliberately find it out on their own or I tell them myself. So you cant really impress them or convince them enough to offer you a place in their school; unless you are following the US system (ie, good GPA, volunteering works, job experiences, athletic, etc.) As a matter of fact, most good Universities are not very willing to accept transfers, (eg. Havard accepts 30, Stanford accepts 20+ transfers out of like 1500 applicants? They prefer students going in as freshman and learn things their way.) In addition, things are pretty messy if you want to come here in your own will.
But things would be very different if you plan on studying in US earlier, like after the O level or A level. For me, I went to TJC for 6 months after O level and came over to the US, study in community college, follow their system and play by their rules, and now Im transferring to UC Berkeley this Fall (also on Stanfords waitlist, but I rather go to UCB than to become an average in Stanford just like whatever the post #148 said, which can affect my chance of getting into a good grad school.) I also have friends who went over to the UK after A level on their own. However, I can really tell you that in terms of academic and studies in US, they are all BS and couldnt compare with SG. But I have to admit that not only that the people who created atomic bombs make the schools out here prestigious, in fact, a US degree worth so much more than many other degrees sharing the same title, even more than a UK degree. </p>
<p>So the best bet for you now is to complete your undergrad studies, then apply for scholarships to study abroad, or even apply directly to the grad schools in US/UK. It will not only be better for you in future, but it also gives you a better chance of getting in. If you transfer now, you kinda stuck in between: even though you are of the higher level, you have to spend time taking other required courses like any other freshman, wasting time and money- if you get accepted as a transfer that is.</p>
<p>–Harvard isn’t accepting any transfers for the next two years–</p>
<p><a href=“also%20on%20Stanford’s%20waitlist,%20but%20I%20rather%20go%20to%20UCB%20than%20to%20become%20an%20‘average’%20in%20Stanford%20just%20like%20whatever%20the%20post%20#148%20said,%20which%20can%20affect%20my%20chance%20of%20getting%20into%20a%20good%20grad%20school.”>quote</a>
[/quote]
</p>
<p>if you’re talking about being at the top or ‘average’ in terms of GPA, and you think that the competition would be less intense at UCB, then I think you’ve got yourself in a bit of a mess here. Stanford and UCB are comparable in terms of student academic ability. in fact, UCB admission is very SAT-heavy, so you’re more likely to find smarter and more muggerish students there.</p>
<p>I actually ‘think’ (so it’s just my opinion) that Berkeley albeit competitive is less than Stanford… compare their SAT mid range… and a state school will be forced to accept less impressive students</p>
<p>One of my friends that went to MIT said that, in MIT, he didn’t studied much, but learned a lot, but in NUS, his friends studied a lot, and didn’t learn much.</p>
<p>Thank you for your frank response Zeikinxon</p>
<p>You seem be implying that transferring out from NUS is all but impossible because US institutions don’t recognise/disregards the education that NUS/Singapore in general gives …</p>
<p>In that case, how will applying as a graduate student make my chances better? If anything, “Singaporean Education” will be more ingrained in me by then, making me an even less appealing prospect - the factors working against me as an international transfer applicant will be even more pronounced if I apply as an international graduate student. </p>
<p>Furthermore, I’m fully aware that that the transfer statistics for HYPS are rather abysmal - those institutions are definitely not my radar! Instead I’ll be aiming for colleges like Cornell & Berkeley, both of which took in ~30% of transfer applicants in 2006 and 2007 (or at least that’s what the stickies on the ‘Transfer Students’ forum state. I have no idea how many successful applicants are internationals). I won’t even begin to consider HYPS unless I graduate from another US institution (if I ever get there -_-) with a stellar GPA. Will my chances at Cornell/Berkeley and their peer colleges (UMich, UVa, UCLA etc) still be non-existent? Do note that I won’t be asking for any aid. </p>
<p>That said … is it the general consensus of the posters here that matriculating in NUS will cause irrevocable damage to my chances as a transfer applicant?</p>
<p>Anomandaris</p>
<p>I think what Zeikinxon is saying (and we seem to see things in similar ways, perhaps due to our experiences here in the US) has less to do with recognition with NUS and more due to the whole US system as it was pointed out. My opinion is that a NUS graduate is well-received for graduate studies in the US if he is qualified, but a system for transfer of undergrads from international universities to a US university is not established (and hence the recognition problem of NUS that you perceived to be there).</p>
<p>No, you would stand a better chance applying for graduate studies than to transfer as an international undergrad. I suspect the 30% transfer rate you mention for UCB mainly comes from the community colleges here (the path taken by Zeikinxon). As a public research university, the UCs have a long standing relationship to accept transfers from local community colleges (I suspect Cornell has a similar system). Regardless of aid, the sad fact is that a system of international transfer is just not in place for such an option to succeed.</p>
<p>Matriculating in NUS is not doing any damage to your chances to transfer, this line of thinking is dumping on NUS as an educational institution, which I strongly oppose. It’s just that transfer for international just seems non-existent at this moment. Your chances to transfer is only strengthened if you are here in a community college! NUS has nothing to do with it!</p>
<p>Anomandaris, I understand you are eager to seek an overseas education (as with most Singaporeans fed with a daily diet of scholarship, Oxbridge, Ivy league, elitist hype) for whatever reasons you may have, but if we understand your situation correctly, it seems that this is not the moment to do so. You will be in a better position when you have:</p>
<p>1) a first-class/second upper honors tucked in your belt.
2) a more defined area of studies within Psychology that you have done work in that can be shown.
3) a working relationship with professors both in NUS and in the US
4) even perhaps 1-2 years of working experience.</p>
<p>after that, you can think of graduate studies here.</p>
<p>limnieng, no disrespect meant to you, but how much do you really know about the international transfer applicant process? You have admitted that you do not personally know of any NUS students who have attempted a transfer before, nor do I believe that you have attempted a transfer yourself.</p>
<p>I’m sorry if I sound harsh, but a sweeping statement like “the sad fact is that a system of international transfer is just not in place for such an option to succeed” is very misleading and discouraging. A simple search on the web can bring you to [Columbia</a> University Office of Undergraduate Admissions - International Transfer Students](<a href=“http://www.studentaffairs.columbia.edu/admissions/applications/transfer_intl.php]Columbia”>http://www.studentaffairs.columbia.edu/admissions/applications/transfer_intl.php) where NUS is listed as a “US-style” college which Columbia accepts international transfer applications from!</p>
<p>Now, Anomandaris, simply because it’s possible doesn’t mean your chances are good! I seriously suggest contacting the colleges you’re aiming for to find out more details about credit transfer/modules you should take/etc. Some colleges may not even accept transfers into sophomore year. Within a single college there may be different requirements for each major. Inquiring on CC alone is simply not enough. You should contact NUS as well.</p>
<p>Once again, no offense meant to you limnieng. I know you mean well and your replies to Anomandaris have been very constructive … but like I said, I found the first half of your post very misleading. If a NUS graduate with good grades is well received abroad, why would a good NUS undergraduate face overwhelming odds for admission?</p>
<p>I’m sorry if I sound discouraging, but I think Anomandaris was trying to gauge chances here, and I didn’t want to convey false hope.</p>
<p>Yes, it’s true that I do not know much about international undergrad transfer which I freely admit. However, it is reasonable to venture that if such as system is well-established, many would have embark or at least attempt this path. (And when I say well-established, I am not disputing if such a system exist. As Fistandantilus has found out, this system does exist. By well-established, I mean to question if this existing system is bureaucratically well-formed. I think this is crucial to the success rate of international undergrad transfer. As with many policies, simply having something there do not mean it is in fact functioning. Just like it is against the law to jay-walk, but seldom do the police make use of the law to punish jaywalkers. Similarly, by saying the system of international transfer exist does not mean that it is in fact actively used by US universities as an avenue of undergrad enrollment.) </p>
<p>However, as Zeikinxon would also testify, this system is not seen to be “in place” (define ‘in place’ to mean ‘well-established’), and thus unlikely to ‘succeed’. I hope this clears up what Fistandantilus deems a sweeping and misleading statement. But of course, I agree that it doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t try it just because it hasn’t been done. For all you know, you could be a pioneer! Just don’t get your hopes up, in case you should suffer a great fall.</p>
<p>As to the question of ‘overwhelming odds for admission’, I was specifically referring to the transfer process, which I have clearly explained in this and previous posts, and not to other kinds of admission. Direct undergrad and grad admission to US/UK universities of Singaporeans have always been excellent! Much higher than most countries considering the population we have, another testimony to how well-received NUS is to foreign universities. Transfer, however, is another matter…</p>
<p>Anomandaris,
I strongly encourage transfer-wannabes like you to find out ways to transfer by calling the school you want to go (ie. Cornell, UCB.) Tell them your situation, and they can tell you whether youre qualified or not, and will they process your application or not. A yes or no answer. To apply or not to apply. Nothing to do with NUS. Period.</p>
<p>Worth a try, but in my opinion, applying as transfers is generally harder than applying as grad student. Why? Simple. As a transfer, you are continuing your education overseas with no apparent (or satisfying) reasons like you recently immigrated here or your dad works here, etc. As a graduate however, u already HAVE the degree (something that you can show off with), and you are coming here to further your studies. Tell me, in which case does it sound more convincing: to continue your studies or to further your studies?
So Im not saying that it is impossible, but the more convincing side/reason will give you a better chance. Who knows? But if you are talking about your chance, I vote for the latter.</p>
<p>As a side note, I know you have no problem financially, but money do play a major role for international students. The following is from Stanfords FAQ on transfer admission process:
Was financial need part of the admission decision?
An applicants need for financial aid is never a factor in the admission decision, except in the case of international students (applicants requiring a student visa to study in the United States).</p>
<p>Also, the Homeland Security or whatsoever wants to make sure that you are clean, you have no intension of staying here after graduation, and so on So, getting a scholarship does not necessary means that you need the money, but it will also help you bypass this KNNB procedure for a safe and uninterrupted studies in the US. You are guaranteed to study here, but you have limited options as to which school to study.</p>
<p>So, inquire about transferring application directly with the universities that are within your radar range and give it a shot. If not, follow the list of things that limnieng proposed and strengthen your chance for grad school. Again, since you have no problem financially, you basically have nothing to lose otherwise.</p>
<p>o.O Zeikinxon, I think there’re a variety of plausible reasons why internationals would want to enter the american education system as a sophomore/junior. Your argument could be applied to incoming international freshmen … they’re continuing their education overseas, but do they have “apparent (or satisfying) reasons like you recently immigrated here or your dad works here, etc.”?</p>
<p>I do understand why a case such as mine is rare - qualified people who want (and can afford) to study in the US will enroll as freshmen! I made many mistakes during the application process though:</p>
<p>1) Only applying after my NS, which meant that I had no margin of error. Furthermore, I could no longer locate most of the teachers who knew me well, and thus my recommendations were probably run-of-the-mill and unspectacular</p>
<p>2) Not applying to any ‘safties’</p>
<p>3) Forgetting to send my CCA record (don’t ask -_-)</p>
<p>I have faith in my academic record and intellectual prowess … but you could interview me and write a textbook on what Not to do during the US College Application process! With hindsight, the fact that I was waitlisted at several colleges and not given an outright rejection can be considered a good outcome. Give me one more year to apply and I’m pretty sure I can get accepted by at least ONE college … but taking a gap year on top of the 2 years lost to NS is simply not an option.</p>
<p>I was careless and complacent, and now I’m paying the price. I’m not ruling out completing my undergraduate studies in Singapore, but I’ve learnt my lesson - if I do intend to transfer, I should start the process early!</p>
<p>It looks like I may be wandering into uncharted territory though. In the event that I complete successful transfer, I’ll be sure to return and share my experiences.</p>
<p>Thank you all for your feedback!</p>
<p>Hmmm… I get what you mean… I actually know of many friends who are studying here as well as in Canada, they got into high school before enrolling as freshman in universities. They all did it through some kind of agencies. I can help you ask about it, but I doubt that the same thing applies for transfers.</p>
<p>Yeah, like I said before, I have no doubt about your academic abilities, but the limiting factor in this case is not on you, it’s in the US system. I know, life sucks. Things aren’t always meant to be simply because you have what it takes. I guess this is one big difference between SG and the US. In SG, you are almighty as long as you have the grades; in US, grades do not mean everything, so that’s why there are many 3.2, 3.3 gpa guys get into UC Berkeley.</p>