need advice with 16 yr old daughter

Baelor · April 28, 2010, 12:16pm

You’re right. But you at the same time are just not getting it. I’m not talking about “devout Christians.” I’m talking about people with principles so strong, regardless of what they are, that breaking them is literally an impossibility for all practical purposes.

So consider the following statement:

Does that sound like a reasonable thing to say? Not really.

So let me make this clear to you: I know my family. I know my friends. I know their beliefs. I know their personalities. I’m sure you know those around you as well.

In terms of likelihood, I am absolutely not kidding when I say these kids/parents would no more kill someone then sleep with them. Again, it’s a matter of framework, so I suggest you shed your blinders and stop being so hidebound, and realize that the lens through which you are seeing the issue is simply a manifestation of your own views and experiences.

I don’t delude myself into thinking that everyone who says that they are going to be virgins until marriage will be – obviously, that is false. But you in turn need to realize that if the conviction is strong enough, it will prevail. That’s why we don’t have murders left and right.

That’s what people told my parents. Turned out they just became less flexible, if you want to put it that way, and more convinced of their own ideology, i.e. they become more extreme and devoted to the belief system that they had previously held. That’s what people have told me would happen in middle school. And high school. And college. My moral beliefs and ethical beliefs have changed…never (really not kidding here). Nor will they. Look at Pope Benedict XVI, for example, and tell me that he has become more flexible over time, what with his explicit statement that interreligious dialogue is impossible, reaffirming the ban on contraception, etc. I’m still really struggling to understand how someone could be so arrogant as to claim to know the belief systems and future developments thereof of people they have not met.

Again, I’m not claiming to know everyone. But I do know myself pretty well. And my beliefs stem from something so deep that if you do not embrace, you cannot possibly fathom its implications (i.e., religion). So, yes, it really is that simple – I believe X, and I will always believe X.

Clearly not. She should deal with it. But her daughter is already on BC. She should talk to her daughter about her views on sex, which I mentioned in a previous post that was lost with all the posts explaining that I clearly don’t know my relatives at all.

I expanded it beyond that – when you feel the need to lash out at someone, do you always do it? I highly doubt it. Why not? Because you are in control. It’s the exact same principle relating to sex. In fact, one could argue that sex is in a way always premeditated, so the “biological need” is not actually that relevant unless two people spontaneously become naked and then have to decide whether or not to have sex. What I’m saying is that I and people I know don’t put themselves in situations where sex is even a possibility, e.g. being in a very private place with someone of the opposite sex (or same sex if they are gay). The point is that the principle is so strong that it prevails.

People don’t live up to their own standards, sure. People make mistakes, sure. But people don’t always make big mistakes. If having premarital sex is a big enough mistake, then you won’t do it. Period.

It isn’t that hard to understand.

mousegray · April 28, 2010, 12:29pm

Baelor, I don’t have any argument with your convictions, but I (and maybe others here too) can’t help but raise an eyebrow when you insist that everyone in your community acts just like you on them. Maybe, maybe not. I certainly believe that YOU live by them.

But I do take your point that there is a wide range of behavior out there and we shouldn’t always assume that teenagers are going to be sexually active. Although your life sounds very constricted to me (just my opinion), I don’t doubt that it wouldn’t be a relief to many teenagers out there to not have to walk that line constantly. Life is certainly easier when it’s black and white. (Too bad life doesn’t always cooperate.)

romanigypsyeyes · April 28, 2010, 12:41pm

Baelor, you cannot keep likening murder to premarital sex. Oy vey

emeraldkity4 · April 28, 2010, 1:07pm

I’m talking about people with principles so strong, regardless of what they are, that breaking them is literally an impossibility for all practical purposes.

I understand that you have made a conscious decision to never put yourself in a position where intimacy with another person might be a risk.

That seems awfully restrictive though and a stressful way to live.

For healthy sexually mature men and women, the physiological drive to reproduce is very strong- and to limit your contact with others to the point where you don’t ever have to worry about your hormones overpowering your logical decision seems a little neurotic.

pacheight · April 28, 2010, 1:10pm

baelor, it’s all good. you have great conviction. and a steadfast behavior that fits your beliefs, I think that’s excellent.

I also think this thread may be more helpful to you than the OP, consider the BIG lesson your church teaches every sunday. And it’s a good lesson. because when your turn with a mistake (aka a sin) comes you’re going to be crushed unless you can forgive yourself, which means you need to realize we’re all tempted and we all make mistakes. Especially teenagers with raging hormones who’s part of the brain that protects against risky behavior is not fully developed until around 22 years old…evolution designed us this way, to take risks at this age! it’s natural, it’s normal and it drives parents crazy:)

And it can be very dangerous, physically and emotionally.

life is messy and dangerous. or as the buddhist say, “life is suffering”

Iglooo · April 28, 2010, 1:18pm

…we shouldn’t always assume that teenagers are going to be sexually active…

It’s just that their hormone is raging, like it or not. Is 50% correct? I heard that 50% is crossed sometime between sophomore and junior years. more like 60-70% by the time they graduate from hs.

bulletandpima · April 28, 2010, 1:19pm

Baelor I applaud your conviction to not have pre-marital sex. I think we should all applaud you for your stance.

I hope that you never have to come to a cross roads between your life style and religious convictions.

I don’t believe any of us were or are trying to change your beliefs, we are trying to say you are not realistic regarding today’s society, and because of your religious beliefs, you opt to play ostrich. Ostrich will only cause pain.

Just out of curiosity, could your moniker actually be traditionally spelled with a Y

Nrdsb4 · April 28, 2010, 1:35pm

No matter how well you know someone, you can never be absolutely certain how they will behave as it relates to sex. You might be able to predict with a fair amount of accuracy, but the fact is that sometimes people behave in ways that are completely out of character. In every culture such as the one you describe, there will be someone who believes just as you do, but ends up behaving differently. Sometimes it’s a willful rejection of the values, sometimes it is the result of putting themselves in the position to be overly tempted, perhaps finding themselves under the influence of a substance which weakens their resolve, etc. I’d say the chances are high that at least one person who you absolutely insist would “NEVER” have premarital sex will actually do so. But you will never have to admit you are wrong because they won’t EVER tell you about it. And with your attitude, it wouldn’t be surprising, because they would probably be feeling pretty bad about it enough as it was without having to face your judgment.

emeraldkity4 · April 28, 2010, 1:52pm

In terms of likelihood, I am absolutely not kidding when I say these kids/parents would no more kill someone then sleep with them.

This is a meaningless analogy, because our brain is hard wired to avoid pain, to relieve hunger and thirst and to pursue sex and sleep.
We don’t have a physiological drive to kill another human being.

Baelor · April 28, 2010, 2:02pm

The community is self-selective, so the issue resolves itself.

They’re both moral issues – that’s enough comparison for what I’m trying to say. It also helps that there is a consensus on the moral implications of murder versus a wide debate on sex.

Whatever. If you want to start a separate thread on that issue, that’s fine. I personally find it liberating. But you are clearly entitled to your opinion.

I know. I am clearly well aware of my own beliefs on “mistakes.” That doesn’t mean everyone succumbs to them all the time, or that certain mistakes are inevitable. I would also not judge a person for making a mistake, no matter how grave (that does not mean I would not take issue with their actions).

Of course they’re not realistic for society. I’m not claiming that they are. I fail to see the “ostrich” here.

I agree. But that extends to everything, not just sex. That’s my point – for some people, actions related to sex take on incredibly serious and deep moral overtones. And therefore go through a thought process similar to other moral issues. In this context, sex is not an exception for some people.

See above on judgment.

And again, you literally do not know me at all. You are therefore in absolutely no position to claim anything about anyone I know because any statistical chance of any particular outcome is entirely dependent on the sample population, of information of which you are naturally completely deprived. I am also friends with people who have sex. A lot. Those are not the people relevant to this discussion right now.

Nrdsb4 · April 28, 2010, 2:05pm

^^^^And even YOU can NEVER TOTALLY know someone, no matter how many times you insist that you can. There is a part inside of every human being that remains secret.

Baelor · April 28, 2010, 2:09pm

I know. I’m not denying that (except in some cases, where people truly open up as much as they are able to other people), but I’m also questioning its relevance. The point is that it is possible to be just as sure about sex as, say, the fact that your friend is not a serial killer, or beats old ladies regularly on the street, or is a cyberhacker, etc.

Again, my point is that sex is NOT unique in any way, and one can have the same amount of conviction about beliefs and decisions of friends in the sexual realm than in any other realm.

pacheight · April 28, 2010, 2:24pm

baelor, i think you’d be freaked-out if you knew what was really going on inside your friends heads. And some of your friends or you may act on those thoughts. It’s sophomoric to think that circumstances and feelings in the moments ahead (aka your near future) will not challenge or cause you to bend or break your beliefs. I think we all get up each day with our values and beliefs intact (or re-intact:), but as you get older you realize something is coming, could be good could be bad, but something is coming.

And hey I think from everything I’ve read you agree with most of this, you just don’t think it’ll happen to you or your friends.

from my experience it’s always the ones you least suspect who are foolin’ around:)

be safe and waiting till marriage is good! I’m a big fan of that concept since I have three daughters!

Nrdsb4 · April 28, 2010, 2:24pm

The fact that you continue to equate something which has, in addition to moral and spiritual angles, a strong biological component as part of human DNA, with actions which do not may possibly be due to the fact that you have never had sex. Or do not yet have a strong sex drive. Those of us who have know how strong that drive is, and therefore how important it is to avoid putting temptation into the mix of youth and hormones, such as the OP is worried about. Because in spite of one’s convictions, there always remains the chance that under the right circumstances, convictions, no matter how strong, can go out the window for just a brief moment. I don’t have to know any of your friends and relatives to know that it’s not impossible that one among them will succumb. Probably far far less than the 50% statistic of the general population. But if they do, you will likely never know about it, because they will probably be ashamed and will keep it to themselves, all the while you will continue to insist that you are incapable of being wrong about any of them.

Baelor · April 28, 2010, 2:55pm

Your asinine comments are getting tired. Do you know your daughters? Do you know them?

If yes, then good. I know my family in the same way you know yours, and I know my friends in a similar way.

If no, then I don’t see how you could possibly comment on the relationships between other people, given that you would self-admittedly have no experience yourself.

Either way, you can stop telling me what people I know think, say, or do. I don’t give a damn what you think, I only care what you know. Which – given that you have not met me or my friends or my family – is nothing.

It’s not that simple. My political beliefs have changed significantly. My moral ones have not. When morality is codified, as it is in my religion, it requires a total rejection of the religion itself to dispute any particular moral teaching. In other words, I would have to transition from totally devout to totally atheistic in order for any moral belief of any consequence to change.

That is highly unlikely.

I would hope they wouldn’t be ashamed; regretful, perhaps, but not permanently ashamed. For the record, I’m talking about a sample size of maybe ten here, not fifty. I don’t know whether that provides additional context.

Yes to the virginity, no to the asexuality. The point is that the biological component pales in comparison to the moral implications, in the same way that a temporary rage that might prompt physical violence pales in comparison to the legal implications of that action. Because again, all sex is premeditated. I do not walk down the street and suddenly appear naked in bed with someone else. When you have a very close group of friends that supports its members in issues like this, the biological component quite literally becomes irrelevant.

Again, I fail to see why this is so unbelievable. So let me ask this question: Have any of you been in my exact situation?

If yes, then you would obviously agree with me.

If no, then your answers indicate that you are truly incapable of stepping outside of what you consider to the be realm of possibilities.

I have been in a lot of different environments, and an overwhelming majority have had sexual ethics that are contrary to my own. But assenting environments do exist.

Lafalum84 · April 28, 2010, 3:07pm

When I was in college, I was involved in a very active and devout Christian organization. We all had strong principals and beliefs, but not in an obnoxious way. A student in the organization had invited her Pastor from home to come and speak to one of our meetings. He asked her what we wanted him to speak on, and brought up typical college-aged issues, including sex. My friend reassured him that our group didn’t need to hear about sex, we were all clear on that topic and weren’t having problems with it. “Really?” the Pastor asked, “Because in that case you’re not human.”

Baelor · April 28, 2010, 3:12pm

Everyone has problems. That doesn’t mean everyone, or even some people who are truly convinced that premarital sex is wrong, go all the way to having sex. No one is saying it’s easy. Just that the end result – premarital sex – is not an issue because the struggle comes with the events leading up to it, and the struggle is always (in the cases of some people) won by the side of principle.

UCDAlum82 · April 28, 2010, 3:24pm

I have two daughters, and I’m not a fan of waiting until marriage. My thinking is sex can be a huge bonding portion of a relationship. The intimacy a good sex life brings into a relationship can’t be replaced. Marriage should be forever. Entering marriage without knowing if you are sexually compatible means you may be promising forever without knowing if that forever will be spent in a truly intimate bond, or in a respectful, but not intimate partnership.

As someone mentioned above, people have different sex drives. My experience among friends and family, is that sometimes people who are “waiting” would be better described as not really into sex, except for when they need to for procreation. I’ve seen it, and it leads to a cold, shallow marriage. I would be saddened to find one of my daughters in that type of life long relationship.

I surprised to hear the argument there are folk’s who’s sex drive was comparable to their will to kill when angry. Either that’s an extremely weak sex drive, or an extremely hard to control rage trigger. Either way, I’d be really leery of entering into a relationship with someone like that.

(And wow, how did this discussion end up here rather than on the dating boards…)

romanigypsyeyes · April 28, 2010, 3:41pm

^ I agree with you UCD.
My parents never stressed that I should wait until marriage to have sex. In fact, I don’t think they’ve EVER told me that. Sex in my family has always been viewed as a natural progression in life and something that should be openly (and safely) shared between two people who are committed to one another.

But I guess on that same note, my parents don’t believe that signing a marriage certificate is essential to life, unlike some people. We’re also not religious so we don’t think that having relations before signing a document is “living in sin” or whatever. (Which, I have to admit, I’m kind of glad about because if they didn’t “live in sin” before getting married, I wouldn’t be here…)

Going back to the OP, let me reiterate what I said already. Make sure your daughter is educated about the pros and cons of sex. Make sure that she is properly prepared to have safe sex (condoms, the pill, whatever) just in case. Then trust that you have done all you can to prepare your daughter to make the right decision for herself, because that is really all you can do.

pacheight · April 28, 2010, 4:14pm

one thing is for sure, sex is a hot topic:)

need advice with 16 yr old daughter

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