Nurturing versus "Tough Love" theatre schools?

College Majors Theater/Drama Majors
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<p>I hope someone knowledgeable can help me here. I hope you don’t mind the long format–it’s hard to frame what I’m asking.</p>

<p>Many BFA acting programs in America have a philosophy of ‘breaking down’ the student in order to rebuild them in their image. It’s not really stated, but it is well known in practice. </p>

<p>My oldest was broken down literally by this method and ended up withdrawing from acting entirely. As you can probably tell from my tone, I completely disagree that this method is necessary or even a good idea for many students. I’m sure there are students who toughen up or even thrive in such an environment, but my son was/is very sensitive, had just suffered a divorce between me and his father, and definitely was not in a place to be ‘broken down.’ Based on drop out rates, I have to wonder if my son is the only one who was ‘beaten down’ to the point of almost getting destroyed. </p>

<p>As an artist myself, I disagree with this ‘breaking down’ philosophy. I think a lot of ego is involved when schools declare this is necessary. I also don’t think it conforms to the ‘real’ world (except perhaps in New York?) My younger son is actually a professional working stage actor (he is 16, almost full Equity now) and in his experience, working theatres have actually been quite nurturing and supportive; actors who are snobs, nasty or backstabbers are generally not asked back. </p>

<p>Yet from almost the moment he started his program, my son faced backstabbing, nastiness, and generally, a very unsupportive environment that actually encouraged competitiveness and ego-centrism from the top down. Again, I must stress that this was my SON’S experience. I know for a fact that other students had a wonderful experience in the program – some kids are much more impervious to this sort of ‘toughness’ than others. My son isn’t strong that way.</p>

<p>OK, now for the question. My daughter is now applying to BFA acting programs (ugh!) and naturally I worry that she will have the same bad experience. I absolutely cannot condone a program that has a high drop out rate or one that is known to ‘break and remake’ students, EVEN IF an individual student you know had a great experience there.</p>

<p>Do people know of programs that are known for nurturing, support, guidance, and commitment to their own students? I would really, really appreciate any feedback you have. </p>

<p>Also, I don’t see this very much here–what do people know of Canadian programs? Any good ones you can recommend? </p>

<p>Thanks to all–</p>

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<p>My son is a student in the BFA program at the Boston University School of Theatre. The faculty are quite supportive and nurturing there. I think this is particularly noticeable (and valuable) during freshman year.</p>

<p>On the other hand, it is my understanding that there is a competitiveness among students in every program. At schools where the freshman are not in casting, the competitiveness starts to creep in after casting begins. Unfortunately, it is a stress factor that probably cannot be avoided.</p>

<p>If at all possible, I think visiting the school and having conversations with as many students as possible is the best way to get a sense of the program’s “vibe.”</p>

<p>I think you said in another post that your son attended one of the schools where my son was accepted. He decided against attending after we visited the studio he was placed in and did not get the right vibe.</p>

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<p>As NJTheaterMOM suggested: you and your daughter should visit the the schools and ask the tough questions to get a sense of the program and the “vibe”. </p>

<p>Keep in mind though, theater programs change over time as the faculty changes. For example, I graduated with a BFA from Boston University’s School of Theater 34 years ago. At the time, the program started with about 90 freshman students, and each year about 20 students were cut or were heavily advised to transfer out. I think our graduating class was about 30 kids – most of whom, like myself, are still in the business today, in one form or the other. From NJTheaterMOM’s statement about BU, the program seems to have changed – for the better – since then.</p>

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<p>HoveringMom, sorry your son had a bad experience. That must have been so upsetting for you.
Would you mind letting us know which Studio it was at that had such a tough love approach? Are some Tisch studios harsher or more competitive than others?</p>

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<p>MOMMMY5 asks:

</p>

<p>HoveringMom had written previously:

</p>

<p>Based on the follow up responses, am I to assume this was at Tisch? I think what HoveringMom wrote earlier and acknowledged needs to be a MAJOR consideration because every person’s experience is quite different based on their own personality and so on. My kid attended Tisch and felt nurtured and didn’t experience backstabbing. She was very happy with her experiences there. My D studied in two studios: CAP21 (musical theater, which is no longer a studio option for incoming students) and ETW (Experimental Theater Wing, an acting studio). She also participated in shows at Strasberg Studio and Playwrights Horizons studio. She has many friends from all the studios at Tisch and a great many who loved their experiences. I am not doubting that some are not happy but I would caution others to consider the point that HoveringMom made above because each person experiences things differently. </p>

<p>When exploring a school or BFA program, talk to MANY current students. If you see an obvious pattern among all the students, then it may have some validity or give you pause (if something negative) but don’t go by just one or two people’s experiences as it is not likely to give you the full picture. </p>

<p>I am NOT discounting the experience that Hoveringmom relates about her son as it is very real for HIM. I’m just countering it by saying that my kid and so many of her peers at Tisch were very happy and experienced a lot of nurturing and care by faculty. I believe Hoveringmom is acknowledging this as well.</p>

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<p>I agree with Soozie, and am the parent of an extremely happy Tisch student, who feels like her studio is her home and her fellow students her friends. Creative, collaborative and challenging are all words I’d use to describe the experience.</p>

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<p>Thanks so much for the thoughts on Boston.</p>

<p>But I didn’t say anything about which college my son attended. I’m not sure why this has segued into a discussion about the merits of Tisch. I deliberately didn’t say anything because I didn’t want this discussion to do just what it did–have people write in defending their choices. As I said, each person is unique.</p>

<p>However, it is a truth that some schools have a reputation for cutting and/or for ‘breaking down’ the student. This is fact. My son absolutely did not respond well to this. What I wanted to know was whether folks know schools that have a commitment to the talents of each individual student. For instance, if you go to the website of the Royal Conservatoire of Scotland, you will see it says outright: “Small class sizes ensuring you are supported to fully develop your skills and specialisms.” This might sound slight, but if you notice it talks of “YOUR” skills and YOUR specialisms. The academy is known for nurturing the talent that you HAVE rather than ‘breaking’ you down to ‘mold’ you.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, English schools - which to my understanding don’t subscribe to the ‘break and mold’ tradition - are too expensive for us (and very competitive of course). </p>

<p>So any advice about American schools that subscribe to a nurturing philosophy would be appreciated.</p>

<p>And of course students will be competetive. That’s not what I mean. I mean a trickle down nastiness that starts with professors and the program itself, which positions itself as a sort of dictatorship that can decide when a student is, say, 19, whether they fit the mold or not, and kick them out if they don’t. Or a program that doesn’t necessarily cut, but which sets their own students against each other rather than collaboratively has them working together to each offer what the best is they can do.</p>

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<p>Thanks so much for the thoughts on Boston.</p>

<p>But I didn’t say anything about which college my son attended. I’m not sure why this has segued into a discussion about the merits of Tisch. I deliberately didn’t say anything because I didn’t want this discussion to do just what it did–have people write in defending their choices. As I said, each person is unique.</p>

<p>However, it is a truth that some schools have a reputation for cutting and/or for ‘breaking down’ the student. This is fact. My son absolutely did not respond well to this. What I wanted to know was whether folks know schools that have a commitment to the talents of each individual student. For instance, if you go to the website of the Royal Conservatoire of Scotland, you will see it says outright: “Small class sizes ensuring you are supported to fully develop your skills and specialisms.” This might sound slight, but if you notice it talks of “YOUR” skills and YOUR specialisms. The academy is known for nurturing the talent that you HAVE rather than ‘breaking’ you down to ‘mold’ you.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, English schools - which to my understanding don’t subscribe to the ‘break and mold’ tradition - are too expensive for us (and very competitive of course). </p>

<p>So any advice about American schools that subscribe to a nurturing philosophy would be appreciated.</p>

<p>And of course students will be competetive. That’s not what I mean. I mean a trickle down nastiness that starts with professors and the program itself, which positions itself as a sort of dictatorship that can decide when a student is, say, 19, whether they fit the mold or not, and kick them out if they don’t. Or a program that doesn’t necessarily cut, but which sets their own students against each other rather than collaboratively has them working together to each offer what the best is they can do.</p>

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<p>And PS, Suzievt, I’ve followed your wonderful posts and realize your D had an absolutely wonderful experience, which is awesome. Unfortunately, my son doesn’t have anywhere near the strength of personality your D obviously has. Just as you say–each case is different. And for those who say that you have to be ‘tough’ to make it in the business, that’s true, but I disagree that it’s the school’s job to therefore ‘break you’ - randomly - and watch if you survive. 18 or 19 is too young for that, and I don’t even think it’s necessary. What happens in the ‘real’ theatre world is very different–if you’re rejected it’s simply because you’re not right for the part (physically, usually) or you don’t have the right connections (happens a lot) or whatever. It’s not because you didn’t conform to the director’s random acting method. Most directors are quite practical–can you act, can you not, is your voice right, is it not, do you look right, do you not, can you work with others, can you not. Done. If you ‘break’ from this hard business at least you haven’t paid for the experience, and you are also that much older and have more life experience to deal with the rejection.</p>

<p>Sorry to ramble on. I hurt for my son, and I’m afraid for my daughter. Ugh–it’s so hard being a parent.</p>

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<p>hoveringmom, you asked for a list of schools that are “tough love” vs. nurturing. How else are people supposed to respond except for defending the schools they / their children attend? </p>

<p>If you’re looking at it from school websites, I can’t imagine that’s really going to give you an accurate picture. I’d imagine that most schools would talk about developing the artistic potential of every student. whether they choose to use the word “your” or not is really a silly way to evaluate a school, at least IMHO!</p>

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<p>There is a culture to every theater program (and every college). It is unfortunate that theater programs have become so competitive that students (and parents) lose sight of “finding the right fit” for “getting into the most prestigious school”. This is true for all college programs, not just theater.</p>

<p>Hopefully all our kids have more than one choice so they can get the fit right!</p>

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<p>hoveringmom - My D is a sophomore at Coastal Carolina University and I think it might fit the bill for what you are looking for. They offer BFAs in Acting and Physical Theatre, as well as MT and Design and Technology. I cannot say enough positive things about the faculty and the students there, plus there is a strong theatre parents group who support all of the kids in the program. The program chair posts on CC as kjgc if you want to search for some of his posts. And there is quite a bit of information in the CCU subforum:
[Coastal</a> Carolina University - College Confidential](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/coastal-carolina-university/]Coastal”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/coastal-carolina-university/)</p>

<p>More department info:
[CCU</a> Department of Theatre](<a href=“http://www.coastal.edu/theatre/html/bfa-acting.html]CCU”>http://www.coastal.edu/theatre/html/bfa-acting.html)
[CCU</a> Department of Theatre](<a href=“http://www.coastal.edu/theatre/html/bfa-physical-theatre.html]CCU”>http://www.coastal.edu/theatre/html/bfa-physical-theatre.html)</p>

<p>Feel free to post questions here or PM me if you would like to know more. Best of luck!</p>

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<p>At my daughter’s school, Northwestern, they have the students choose their acting teacher which works very well for the different types of teachers and students. Towards the end of Freshman year each student attends each acting teacher’s class two or three times so that he/she can learn each teachers “style” and determine how that matches his/hers. It’s worked very well for all the kids in the program according to my daughter. She likes a tougher teacher and is thrilled to be in her class (okay, she’s not always thrilled but she likes hearing the truth directly with no sugar coating). Friends of hers have a much more gentle acting teacher, different styles for different kids. Oh and each class stays together for the next 3 years. I don’t know if this happens at any other schools but that might be something to ask about.</p>

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<p>It is my impression that you are over generalizing things. The fact that two people can go to the very same school, receive the same teaching and have very different experiences makes the point that fit is a very personal thing. I seriously doubt there is any school that is intentionally trying to damage people on personal level. However, I have no doubt that some schools have a very different teaching styles and a student who was particularly sensitive could view/handle strong critiques differently. My daugher is her own worst critic and has a big internal competitive side to her so tends to do her best work when someone really pushes her. Fit is important and that is a very personal decision.</p>

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<p>I’m going to add to the ambiguity here by saying that even if you talk to faculty and students at extreme length when visiting, interviewing and auditioning, the school WILL be different when you get there. By definition the entire freshman class will be kids you weren’t able to meet in advance, and you will have professors whom you never met before (I would guess arts programs have some of the highest numbers of visiting and adjunct faculty - which has definite upsides as well as down). This is not a bad thing, nor an unusual thing - this is all part of the college transition. We did a lot of homework, a lot of research, a lot of listening to her “gut,” and then just had to go on faith.</p>

<p>I have heard schools mentioned on this forum that might actually openly admit a “breaking down” approach, but sometimes the kids who describe the experience say it, too, can be very nurturing - kind of a “back to basics” feeling. It’s so hard to know until you’re there. My D is studying with a new singing teacher at college and is thrilled to be “re-techniquing,” as she calls it - although importantly she describes her teacher as very nice and helpful.</p>

<p>My D chose a school where she got a great feeling from the Dept head, the theatre office vibe (lots of happy people going in and out), the students she met, the rehearsals she observed, and the curriculum she could research. Yet I will say that she’s had her various disappointments - mostly just personality quirks and the kinds of shifts that happen from semester to semester, from year to year. The program is what we thought it would be, and it is a good fit for her. But there was a lot of this that just had to be a “hold your nose and jump” situation, and a lot also depended on her particular disposition and coping style (and I would say she is more on the sensitive side).</p>

<p>I can’t imagine having to do this particular college experience with more than one of my kids (it sounds like you might end up with 3?), and I want to express all of my best wishes to you and your family.</p>

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<p>Wow, thank you for so many supportive comments. :slight_smile: To further clarify:</p>

<p>“hoveringmom, you asked for a list of schools that are “tough love” vs. nurturing. How else are people supposed to respond except for defending the schools they / their children attend?”</p>

<p>Can I observe that you use the word, “defending” – as though I were attacking? If you view this as an attack on your child’s particular school - and I never said what school I was referring to because I feel it’s moot - this most certainly is not an attack. </p>

<p>Yes, certainly each school is absolutely individual, but I don’t think I’m generalizing. I have an MFA in writing, and know firsthand that different programs most definitely each have very well known reputations. In the case of MFAs, everyone knows which school is good for what. Some schools are known to have a top reputation, but to be cutthroat and brutal, with many broken artists (some who never write again), and others are known to be the opposite, making a commitment to work with the individual’s OWN talents, each unique–that is, to make them the best of whatever he/she is, rather than remolding them into the school’s image. My own preference for my kids is to have a program that is still excellent with great connections but more ‘nurturing.’ Obviously some people like to be molded and have the parameters, and some others are very strong to begin with and will always know their inner core regardless. Just not my kids. The tricky thing in the case of MFAs is that this is word of mouth and most certainly almost never posted online or openly discussed when you visit. I’m assuming the same is so of BFAs, and based on my son’s individual experience, I was correct (in retrospect). But when you’re an MFA candidate it’s a bit different, as you’re older and have more connections, so it’s much easier to find out reputations. </p>

<p>What I’m trying to find out - and I see that it may be impossible - is whether anyone knows of any BFA programs ‘reputation’? You can pm me if you dont’ want to public post. Again, we’re looking for excellent programs of high calibre that focus on the individual rather than the school’s vision, and that don’t break a person or remold them. </p>

<p>Thanks once again for all the kind comments. It was definitely a really bad experience and I really appreciate the support.</p>

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<p>It’s an interesting discussion. All teachers are also different even within a school. I don’t recall my kid ever going through being “broken and remolded” in her BFA program. What I think does happen and what can be difficult for some kids is that they may have been at the top of their game, so to speak, in high school and a stand out, etc. Then they get to some highly selective BFA program and they are among lots of “stand outs” and are one of many. THEN, they are also freshmen and sorta at the bottom of the barrel again in college, right after being at the top the previous year or years. And these programs often see the freshmen as “beginners” of a training program, even though they come in with skills and talent of course. And all of a sudden, a kid who is used to being praised all the time is now being critiqued, etc. </p>

<p>But I never felt my kid was ever “molded” into something else at college. In fact, she still has the same strengths as before she started, but is simply much more skilled at it. She is a better performer than when she entered but is not really a different kind of performer. She still has certain things that are her forte. She filled in other areas that were weaker to start, but even so, her strengths are still in the same areas, but just much more developed. She truly wasn’t molded into anything different but just “better” as an individual. That’s my observation. She graduated over two years ago.</p>

<p>And one more point…my D was able to pursue what interested her while in college. She had goals for the four years and structured her program to meet her own goals. Some were individualized goals that did not pertain to each student. She shaped her four years in the way she wanted and it was an individual path of her own making.</p>

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<p>soozievt, I know from reading your posts that your D had a phenomenal experience at Tisch. But she honestly sounds remarkable and very focused. </p>

<p>I do want to add that this is also not a ‘oh no, I’m just a little fish in a big pond’ awakening. That’s a good point to raise and one that many young people are shaken by.</p>

<p>In the case of my D, though, she has a lot of regional acting experience under her belt (she doesn’t do her high school shows) and is also very used to rejection and not getting a part, and used to seeing some very talented folks out there. My son also had a fair amount of outside experience and most definitely was not used to being fawned over in high school. </p>

<p>Can I say soozievt that you only know the personal experience of your own daughter in one school? This also holds for the other poster–both of you said how great an experience NYU was for your children. That’s wonderful, and I’m so glad==but one child’s experience in a program isn’t the same as the overall program. If I can use the analogy I’m used to, I could talk to one MFA grad and he could rave about x program that I happen to know destroyed the careers of two of my friends and which has a policy of breaking. His great experience there is good to know, but I’d still avoid x program like the plague.</p>

<p>I was asking if anyone knew the overall reputation of a BFA program. Again, I know firsthand that programs definitely have patterns, philosophies and so on. Visiting will not yield much, although obviously if you have a negative experience visiting, that should send off alarm bells. But there is no way an BFA program is going to say to candidates, “By the way you little spoiled ****s, we’re gonna break you of your annoying habits and actually you suck–so, like gods, we’ll remake you in our image of REAL acting. And we cut 30% by the third year too sometimes not based on talent but on who is sleeping with who or who likes who. Give us your $55,000 a year.” </p>

<p>I’m only slightly exaggerating. Again, please feel free to pm me if you’d like. Sorry to be pressing this issue but I wish I had pressed it when my son was applying.</p>

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<p>You are making the same point now that I was making (I think!). And that is that one person’s experience may be very different than another person’s. So, I’m not saying that because my kid had a great experience at her particular BFA program, that everyone else will. I am a FIRM believer in FIT. This program fit my kid well. It may not be for everyone. I certainly don’t suggest it is the “best” program. It was great for my kid. But likewise, even though it was not a great fit for your son, it may be fine for someone else. That is why I feel it is really important to talk to MANY current students or recent alums and not rely on one or two people’s experiences at a program. I say this for those who had either positive or negative experiences at a program. No guarantee that will be your own experience. The dynamics differ per person in many ways. </p>

<p>The good thing is that your son made a change to a school that is a better fit. I assume he is happy where he is now. This happens. And it is not a negative thing to do. In fact, it takes a lot of maturity to regroup and make a change to a better fit school. </p>

<p>In any case, I think in the context of this discussion, since many perspective are important to share for those who are considering these particular programs, I offered up that my kid did not experience efforts to break her down, backstabbing, or “molding.” I’m not discounting your son’s experience, but just saying it wasn’t what my kid ever said about her experience. I really do not think she was molded because she is pursuing her individual strengths that truly were her strengths going into the program but are much stronger now. They didn’t change her to be something different is all I am saying. It was a very positive experience. So, it helps for others to hear about many different experiences at a school, both good and bad. I don’t think it is a bad program. I think everyone’s experience at any school will differ. That is why “fit” is so crucial.</p>

<p>PS, I just want to mention that Tisch is a bigger school than many other BFA programs and so not all kids study in the same studio or have the same teachers and so just as one example, your child didn’t train in the same studio as my kid (not sure what studio your child was in but mine did CAP21 and ETW). So, it is not like they were in the same classes for starters.</p>

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<p>I think that soozie has known alot of kids through the years, both through her daughter and through the students she advises in the application process. </p>

<p>I don’t, and I’ve been clear on that. I just know that my daughter doesn’t have a mean or cutthroat bone in her body and wouldn’t be the least bit comfortable in an environment that demeaned people in the way you are suggesting some schools might do in your posts.</p>