Nurturing versus "Tough Love" theatre schools?

College Majors Theater/Drama Majors
21

<p>Responding to one thing more in hoveringmom’s post and then to something in SDonCC’s post. </p>

<p>hoveringmom, earlier, I wasn’t just making a point about small fish in a big pond. I understand that your kids had regional experience outside of school theater. Mine did too, very much so. She was in theater regionally, as well as professionally. She also had auditioned many times in NYC, including for Broadway. My daughter had gone away for 8 summers to an intensive theater program (prior to college) where there was a huge amount of talent from around the country (many who then went onto top college programs and many who are now performing at the top levels professionally speaking). So, I understand that. But first, I was saying that once they attend a highly selective BFA program, there are a lot of kids like that in their classes. But my other point was that the program itself considers them “first years” and almost like “beginners,” no matter how much experience they had before entering college. Ya know, my D will not put up ANY YouTube clips from prior to college (and she was in over 50 productions prior to college) because even she says, “that was before I was trained,” even though she was training throughout her youth. Many BFA programs think of the student starting to train as freshmen in college, no matter what they did before they got there. I also recall a comment my D made to us in her junior year at Tisch. She was the lead in the mainstage show that year. She commented that now she could see why Tisch didn’t allow freshmen to be in the shows and wanted them to train first. She said that she is glad she had some college training before taking on a mainstage lead at the college. This is coming from a kid with a great deal of experience before she entered college. So, my point earlier wasn’t so much the big fish , little fish aspect, but that the BFA programs think of freshmen as “starting” to train. </p>

<p>SDonCC, I have to say that my kid is not cutthroat either and enjoyed the collaborative atmosphere at Tisch. She created a huge network of talented peers at Tisch in all facets of theater. Having graduated more than two years ago, she continues to be very very connected to Tisch alums and works with them a lot. She is in three different shows this week in NYC and each of them involves some former Tischies and the premiere she was in tonight also involved a Tisch faculty member. I notice my kid has 1897 FB friends and while they surely are not all Tischies, a huge number are Tisch alum (and even current students) and some are Tisch faculty and so her network with Tisch is very large and she formed many bonds that continue either on a friendship basis or else professionally (or both) and this would not be true had the atmosphere been cutthroat or involved any backstabbing. I will add that while at Tisch and since graduating, she has been employed several times by Tisch including in the weekend high school program, the summer pre-college program, accompanist in the vocal classes in the BFA program, as musical director for productions…all in a professional capacity. She in fact, recently turned down an offer to be musical director for one of their productions this semester as her schedule is too full. As well, since graduating one of her former studios produced an Equity production of a show she wrote. One of her former professors in another studio hired her to perform in a concert she was in in Germany a year ago. Another professor has hired her to musically direct her original works outside of the college. So, my point here is that she is very closely connected as friends and professionally with many Tisch grads and many faculty this far out of college. I can only think this is possible in a community that is supportive. Again, just one grad’s experience.</p>

22

<p>I suppose it’s possible that there are programs in existence that are “unsupportive environments that actually encourage competitiveness and ego-centrism from the top down.”</p>

<p>Such things seldom get discussed on this forum. Most people are pretty positive in what they post and reserve their occasional negative observations for private exchanges.</p>

<p>Therefore, it is interesting to hear this point of view. I guess it might encourage people to investigate programs very thoroughly and to talk to many, many different individuals during the decision making process.</p>

<p>Something that surprises me a bit is hoveringmom’s mention of an MFA program that “destroyed the careers” of two people. Maybe I’m naive, but it’s hard for me to imagine how that could happen. </p>

<p>I can’t help wondering if the MFA program in question is at the same school where the OP’s son was enrolled in a BFA program. A toxic school??</p>

<p>Or, on the other hand, might it be that there are any number of institutions scattered about that vulnerable individuals should beware of?</p>

<p>We have heard plenty from various people about supportive environments. I’m wondering if there is anybody – apart from hoveringmom – who is reading this and would be willing to confirm that yes, they do know of programs that don’t seem to care whether they devastate sensitive souls or ruin the careers of older students.</p>

23

<p>This is a fascinating thread. It’s serving very well to terrify this minimally-trained actor who totes a short resume that comes almost entirely through high school shows… :O</p>

<p>I’m also interested in this, though. I got a very strong air of snootiness off a few BA programs-- Skidmore and Bennington in particular-- and Fordham/Lincoln Center struck me as outright hostile. Chapman and Emerson were, by contrast, very welcoming and you could tell the student tour guides loved where they ended up and spoke glowingly of the BFAs there.</p>

<p>Of course, it could simply be different strokes for different folks-- and I understand the value of a rootsy, back-to-basics theater education-- but I don’t know many people who could be happy at a program that’s openly disdainful of their personal talents… or even worse, as hoveringmom mentioned above, filled with cutthroats and backbiters (I’m imagining every prima donna wannabe who’s ever made trouble in a show I’ve worked on in the same room… it’s alternately hilarious and horrifying!).</p>

24

<p>A friend of my D had the same experience as hoveringmom’s son. Different school though. Her friend made it through freshman year, and left a couple of weeks into her sophmore year. There are a few instructors that are known for breaking people down, my D’s friend had those instructors, and dropped out rather than try to stick it out for another year. There are students who love the “toughlove” instructors though, so I guess it depends on the kid. My D would not do well with them though, and I’m glad she hasn’t had any of those instructors.<br>
When we were going through the audition process there was one school that gets a lot of love here that I thought was absolutely awful. Rude snobby students, rude auditors, really hostile environment. That was the only time I ever hoped that she didn’t get in to a school. But lots of people love it there, so who knows.</p>

25

<p>strangebro: you will not be the only one auditioning and accepted (we hope) at these schools with a high school show only resume!! No worries there. All the kids I know from our high school who are in BFA or auditioned BA programs only had HS shows… The audition is important, and so too is a demonstration of passion and commitment. You don’t need a professional or even a semi-professional resume to show that! </p>

<p>Stand tall and be proud!</p>

26

<p>This is a great discussion–thank you all for posting.<br>
First, yes, it’s very possible for a bad program to destroy a career. I’m guessing your questioning me because you don’t want to believe that can happen. Trust me, it can. It’s not that the program sets out to destroy careers, and it’s not like it actively does so. But let’s face it, being an artist - in theatre, in writing, whatever - is a very very very tough business. You are sensitive by your nature and the rejection is brutal. I speak as a published writer in the business. Many artists secretly question their talents, even those who put on a confident face. When you combine that with a program that ‘breaks’ you to ‘remold’ you, well, naturally, some people will be permanently broken–this means their career is either destroyed or seriously hijacked. The programs even act as though this were fine–they imply that the ‘broken’ ones were never ‘tough enough’ make it in the business. It’s like a bad fraternity hazing that you pay for. What I object to is not only the inherent cruelty, but the idea itself. I do not think you need to be broken AT ALL in order to be reformed. Some people do respond fine to this of course; but many don’t.</p>

<p>Soozievt, yes, your own daughter has thrived and you know many who have. I really mean it when I say she sounds remarkable, truly remarkable. And I understand the other poster who says his D is gentle and would never tolerate cruelty, so therefore there can’t be cruelty in the program. But this brings out the teacher in me --when you ask kids if bullying is a problem, almost all of them insist that it’s not a big deal, that everyone is making this huge deal out of ‘just drama’ and that there is no bullying problem. THen when you take surveys or talk to individual students, you find out there are horrific instances of bullying, and in the surveys, you discover that 70% of the kids have been bullied. </p>

<p>In the same way, asking your child individually, or relying on her friends, is not a way to determine if the program is a top-down ‘breaking-down’ school. And you’re right about NYU–it does have different programs, and my son was not in the same program as your D. </p>

<p>Let me give you actual examples so you know what I"m talking about. My son entered the program really excited. Within a few weeks cliques of people had formed and he was ‘on the out.’ He was bullied for the first time since 3rd grade, really cruelly (mocking him etc.). He started cutting himself and quickly spiraled into depression. He was in a vulnerable state because his dad and I were going through a divorce. His professors, rather than being concerned, MOCKED HIM TOO. One professor mocked him openly for ‘coming to class stoned’ when my son wasn’t stoned, he was DEPRESSED. During one of his monologues, another professor used my son as an example - in front of the class - of what not to do. Since the cliquey students observed the professors themselves mocking him and since my son was depressed and in a crisis to begin with , he became even more depressed and withdrawn, which made a group of students mock him more. Many of his classmates were super rich and my son was on a major (generous) scholarship. One professor assigned them to perform something in class with costumes. My son had to spend hours in second hand clothes stores as we have no money. Other rich students walked into a store and spent $500 on their parent’s credit card. The professor openly praised the rich kids’ costumes and graded them on the costumes. I could go on and on. At the time I had no idea how bad it was; I only knew my son wasn’t really happy. My son started thinking there was something really wrong with him that deserved the attacks and mockery.</p>

<p>When my son didn’t call me one day -since he wa sdepressed I had him call me at least once a day and he had an agreement to pick up the phone if I called - I knew right away something had happened. I called NYU and THEY MOCKED ME. The guy literally laughed at me and said, “Um, how long has he not called you back?” I told him it had been an hour. He laughed and told me I ‘needed to take a chill pill’ and ‘maybe my son was out enjoying himself.’ I had to call his superior and had to say to them that I was worried it was suicide (I had to use that word). At that point they behooved themselves to check him. He was covered in blood; he’d cut himself very badly.</p>

<p>I am sharing this with you because I think you don’t understand the depth of the problems that a ‘break them down’ program can have. My son was in a vulnerable state at the time, of course. But trust me, tons of college freshmen are in vulnerable states. One of his classmates- one of the few who befriended him - had experienced the murder of both her parents. I think that ‘breaking the kids down’ is brutal and irresponsible. I think it’s a form of bullying.</p>

<p>My oldest son doesn’t act now. </p>

<p>I am NOT saying that if your child enjoyed the program that means that she/he is a terrible person!!! She can be a gentle kind person and the breaking down thing just doesn’t impact her or she even grows from it. This is NOT intended as an ‘attack’ on a particular school! And maybe the particular program he was in was like that and others weren’t. Please understand that. I totally totally agree with Soozievt that it’s all about the fit. But for some kids, it’s good to know in advance that some programs are going to be very very risky. </p>

<p>I wanted to start this thread because it seems that no one talks about the cuts or the ‘breaking down’ thing openly. Or they imagine that THEY won’t be cut or THEY won’t be broken down. In fact, my son was warned by his mentor beforehand about the breaking down thing. She even said, “I don’t think you’ll be able to handle that.” We ignored her because my son comes across as really confident and definitely talented. He and I both thought he’d be fine, that he had experienced rejection before and he could handle it. </p>

<p>What I’d be interested in are statistics. How many students STAY with the program from inception to graduation? That is a measure of satisfaction and support. I am having trouble finding that though. Does anyone know how I’d find individual programs stats on this short of having my D call each college? Thanks.</p>

<p>And I’m sorry I’m so forceful about this. This is an important point and one I really wish my son and I had openly discussed BEFORE he went.</p>

27

<p>I am terribly sorry for your son’s experience. That sounds truly horrendous. i don’t know how long ago that was or what the studio was. I do know that Soozie’s daughter trained in several different studios and has friends across the school, so I think her comments reflect a broader overview than any other representative. My D entered Tisch with nothing and i mean nothing like the background of Soozie’s D, so students enter with all types of experience AND confidence.</p>

<p>I also know that NYU makes attempts to break down the size of its institution, and certainly within Tisch, each student has an arts mentor, (an upperclass student), and has an academic adviser. In my D’s studio, a week is set aside midterm for individual conferences with each teacher. </p>

<p>I can only speak for my D’s studio and just the glimpses I get from what she tells me of her friends’ experiences. </p>

<p>btw, Soozie and I aren’t the only ones who post here about how happy their kids have been at Tisch. We’re just the most CC obsessed. :-)</p>

<p>I’m not trying to say that everyone is happy at Tisch or NYU for that matter; but I’d hate for this bad experience to blanket the school with a reputation for being harsh and a breeding ground for bullying, when others have had such a different experience…</p>

28

<p>On the first day of her studio, they did say, “forget everything you’ve learned.” This didn’t mean that they were “breaking the kids down,” but that they were starting them from scratch with training and technique.</p>

<p>I think this is common for a BFA. My D also applied for a BFA in Art at a different university (keeping her options open!) and was told that they start all the students at the beginning, no matter the level of training and experience. They want them trained in their techniques and to develop artistically from a similar foundation.</p>

29

<p>I apologize for barging in on this thread, I just wanted to thank hoveringmom for writing out her son’s unfortunate experience. </p>

<p>I know it must have been extremely hard to write all that but I just wanted to thoroughly thank you for starting this thread. It really helps people like me, who are now finalizing their application choices and it really gives us an insight into what actually happens at these so-called notable programs. </p>

<p>I think what everyone else is saying is true too, it’s all about what works for each individual person and it’s all about that particular ‘fit’. However, to be judged on something like money, at school, is absolutely disgusting and to push a kid to the point that they physically harm themselves is practically unforgivable. </p>

<p>Even though theatre and arts programs tend to personify the idea of ‘standing out’ and ‘being yourself’ it can unfortunately be very cliquey. Even though I’ve never had any professional experience, I’ve seen a form of this cliquey-ness on various occasions and it really is unfortunate when what crowd you equate yourself with can ultimately define you as a person. It’s even more upsetting when a teacher then treats you differently because of this crowd. </p>

<p>It’s terrible that your son had to go through all this but I sincerely hope that he’s now at a program he enjoys and is surrounded by people who value him for his talent and intellect and not merely on his family’s income. </p>

<p>Anyways, regardless of what the debate is here, I just wanted to say thank you for sharing your son’s experience as it can really help all of us prospective theatre students make some important decisions.</p>

30

<p>and as for the “rich kids at NYU” problem… Yes, I have no doubt there are plenty who throw around their money. But, there are also plenty who hold down jobs (my D has friends in Tisch who have a job several nights a week) and kids who can only take advantage of what NYC has to offer through the free or reduced student price tickets.</p>

<p>And, there are those like my D who do not need a job or reduced prices, and yet are careful with how they spend their money and has taken some paying jobs on her own initiative.</p>

<p>And my D bought an outfit for a studio event last year at a thrift store. I’d be shocked, yes shocked, if she was the only one who did so!</p>

31

<p>HoveringMom, I too am so sorry for your experience with your son. Anyone who has had a kid with depression or anxiety knows how incredibly painful it is. And there are MANY of us. But I think THAT is the point. There is not a high school in this country that does not have a kid going through hard times, depression or cutting themselves. I know kids from perfectly good families that seem to be perfectly happy on the outside, that also were cutting themselves. I honestly do not think this only happens at prestigious acting programs. There are kids that have your son’s experience at tiny little unknown colleges too.</p>

<p>What happened when you called the school is horrible. And colleges, every college, should be better equipped to handle kids that are in pain. Again, I hope your son is doing better now. : )</p>

32

<p>Yes there are plenty of rich kids at NYU. My D has several friends who come from very wealthy backgrounds. But it is important to realize that there are plenty who do not. There are lots who could not go out and buy a $500 costume for a class assignment. My D was on a generous scholarship and we have lots of loans to pay off for her years at NYU. She is not poor but she doesn’t have money to throw around like wealthy kids do. This has not been problematic for her. To those contemplating this school, realize that not all the kids are rich. At many private schools (such as my other D attended Brown), there are wealthy kids but there are lots of kids on financial aid as well. And lots of kids in between.</p>

<p>And some kids may feel affected by this and others do not. My kids don’t mind rich kids and are friends with them. Also there are some really nice rich kids who do not clique up or don’t treat their less wealthy friends any differently. My NYU alum D has several friends who are wealthy and her friendships with them really are not any different than her friendships with kids who have less.</p>

33

<p>I’m glad to have a thread that looks at the down sides-- that is a terrible story, hoveringmom, and it’s very brave and generous of you to get it out there for others to think about as we go along. That clicque-ishness can be a direct result of insecurity-- and there are teachers who are just as insecure and bullying as students can be, with worse effect. And the university’s response-- thank heaven you went over the first person’s head! </p>

<p>And it’s great that this brings out specific examples of other people’s good experiences! The more we know, the better we can make our own decisions.</p>

34

<p>Thank you so much for your openness in your revelations, hoveringmom. I’m very, very sorry about the pain that your son and your family have experienced.</p>

<p>One thing struck me in your account…you said your son had received a warning. I guess it behooves us all to listen to warnings. I think perhaps this is something that might reassure those whom this thread is scaring.</p>

<p>My son decided against NYU because, after visiting the studio where he was placed, and after talking to a number of people, he had the impression that one has to be tough to thrive there, in a way he knew he wasn’t.</p>

<p>Tisch is the dream school of many. What I have gathered, through reading posts here and hearing various anecdotes over the years, is that a large number of people do love it but a surprising number also leave.</p>

<p>Cliques, as well as competitiveness, probably exist at every school. One thing to take into consideration when choosing a school is the size of the program (or the size of the studio, in the case of Tisch). </p>

<p>The program that my son attends, the Boston University School of Theatre, admits more performance students than most of the other top BFA programs, and the students are together, not scattered into studios. In addition, the performance and tech students take certain core courses together during the first two years, which encourages friendships (as well as artistic collaboration) between the two groups.</p>

<p>In a larger class, the clique problem is not so severe, because it is easier to find like-minded students to be your friends. In addition, an attrition rate of something like three or more students per year does not impact the total so severely.</p>

35

<p>Hovering mom-- </p>

<p>No wonder you are hovering!</p>

<p>I’m so sorry to hear about your son’s freshman year in college. How appalling.</p>

<p>I hope he is getting better and finding a way back to himself. </p>

<p>I am a big fan of plain old fashioned bachelor degrees for theater majors. I don’t think there’s a tremendous amount of supporting evidence that actors who graduate from BFA programs work more after graduation. </p>

<p>I think the Musical Theater thing might require a BFA, just because it’s more like an athletic situation, with the dancing and the singing, but as you know, as a writer, the best preparation for art, once you find one very good coach and few supportive friends, is to live as broadly and experience as much variety of life as possible.</p>

<p>JMO</p>

36

<p>Actually, I think that something to consider is how long the kids stay together in one group throughout their college degree. At some schools, you are with the same group for all four years, effectively as a theater troupe. If the chemistry is good, this can be great, but if it’s not, then you might not have other options.</p>

<p>I am just so surprised to read of cliqueishness as a problem at NYU. There are so many opportunities to mix it up with other students. First of all, primary training is two years, so you can switch your studio afterwards, and do it several times I think. </p>

<p>Secondly, at least at some of the primary training studios, they mix up the groups in sophomore year. My D is with a mostly different group of kids this year; on the one hand, it would have been nice to have continued with the group that she had gotten so comfortable with by year’s end, but on the other, she recognizes that it is good for her personal development to gain confidence with a new set of peers and teachers. </p>

<p>Thirdly, Tisch has productions by a range of sponsors: mainstage, student-run and individual studio (some of which are open to students in other studios I believe). I know my daughter even made friends from other studios by the required crew assignment freshman year.</p>

<p>I gauge her comfort level by the number of times she uses the word “friends” in our conversations, and I hear it so often that it makes me feel really good about her time there! </p>

<p>NYU is not for everyone. You have to really want to live in New York City, and not have the traditional campus experience. </p>

<p>But, the advantage of being at Tisch as an NYU student, at least IMO, is that you do have the small studio system to give you that home base. It also helps if you connect with your roommate and / or kids in your dorm. However, I have to say, that I know a CAS student who is currently a senior, not in the arts whatsoever, and he loves it there, has lived in the dorms all four years, made great friends and is not in way rich, hip or what I would call “tough.”</p>

<p>There are definitely some aspects of big university life that are not appealing (as in the Health Center, which my D now refuses to use).</p>

37

<p>I saw this thread the other day and decided not to step in it for fear of the burden of having to wipe it off my shoe, but I’m on location with a weather delay and likely won’t be doing much acting today so here goes … :)</p>

<p>I think you’ll find a certain amount of tearing down first year in pretty much any reputable BFA program and rightfully so. It need not be abusive, however, and for God’s sake shouldn’t have anything to do with rebuilding the student in any particular image. It’s more about freeing the actor by removing encumbrances in my experience although I have heard grumblings from some who attended less reputable programs - mostly MFAs - where the chief complaint is that they were taught to “obey.” </p>

<p>The fact is, most freshmen even in the most selective programs do to some extent present with the muggy habits typical of child and adolescent actors that will not translate well into adulthood and a certain amount of reconstruction is usually necessary. This tends to be especially true with kids with a lot of “performance” experience in American youth theatre musicals and it can sometimes be a tough nut to swallow for the hometown and summer camp “stars.“ The vast majority also need a great deal of work in voice and speech and it is usually the area in which the more painful aspects of being rebuilt with proper technique takes place. </p>

<p>As far as this tearing down goes, I don’t think I’ve ever seen or heard of anything as severe as what Hoveringmom described although I don’t doubt it happened. It’s usually more along the lines of what SDonCC described in that they’re very upfront about advising students to “forget everything you’ve learned.” The styles of delivering this message do vary, however, and some are more “drill sergeant” about it than others. </p>

<p>I’m going to go out on a limb and risk some defensive responses by naming names, but as I understand it, they are pretty tough on freshmen in the Atlantic and Meisner studios at Tisch and they’re known for not suffering fools particularly well in the Rutgers, Purchase or, to a lesser extent, UNCSA BFAs, either. Juilliard, CMU and BU were pretty notorious for this in the old days as well, but have apparently changed their ways in recent years - some say to their detriment. Generally, you might also want to approach lesser known schools where Meisner technique is emphasized with an abundance of caution. While I personally find it to be a pedagogical work of genius as a beginner’s technique, there is a tendency among SOME of both Meisner’s and Bill Esper’s direct descendents to be … errrr … very direct and perhaps overly confrontational at times. Much like their masters …</p>

<p>Also, my experience is that you’ll usually find less competitive behavior and cliquishness in the smaller, more intimate conservatory programs with less than twenty students per class. In fact, it’s usually the one’s guilty of this kind of behavior that you’ll find being put on warning and eventually cut if they don’t change their ways. It just can’t be tolerated in that environment. From what I’ve experienced and gathered from others, it tends to be the mid-sized or large programs with open casting for productions where this tends to become more of a problem. Here’s a link to a past discussion where I described my experience at such a program first semester freshman year followed by some discussion with kjgc … <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/musical-theater-major/745268-schools-allow-freshman-audition-4.html#post8490221[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/musical-theater-major/745268-schools-allow-freshman-audition-4.html#post8490221&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

38

<p>Another invaluable post from you, Fish. I’m glad you named names. People come here to learn.</p>

<p>It’s reassuring to know that competitiveness and cliquishness tend to be actively discouraged in smaller programs.</p>

<p>Your link to the post about the potential dangers of freshman casting was really quite eye-opening. I’ve trolled the archives, reading posts of yours and other especially knowledgeable posters, and I don’t recall having run across that one.</p>

<p>I apologize for my somewhat shameless plugging of Boston University, but this might be a good place to point out that it has guaranteed casting. Students are not cast in productions until second quarter of sophomore year, but after that everyone is cast, every quarter of every semester.</p>

<p>Given the relatively large classes at BU, and the guaranteed casting, there are a number of smaller productions each quarter rather than one or two big ones. Not everyone is going to be cast in what they might consider a great role in all (or even any) of the productions, but everyone will be on stage and performing…and they have lots and lots of great productions to attend as well.</p>

39

<p>I, too, want to thank people for their honesty and personal stories. This is a complicated experience for all of us, and I do believe this Forum exists to help people deal with all of its aspects.</p>

<p>I do think that some really important points are coming through – 1) that there are elements that can make a program more competition-based, for better or for worse; 2) that there are teaching approaches that are harsher by definition, for better or for worse; 3) that you never really know how you – or your kid – will respond to any college situation and we all have to be prepared for surprises; and 4) that freshman year of college is a very different emotional and artistic experience than HS, than the professional world, and even than the subsequent years, and that schools would do well to remember that, in all of its complexity. </p>

<p>While the image that these kids are “mini-professionals” and should behave as such sounds like an admirable idea, I think any new college student - or 18-year-old trying to accomplish anything - deserves a reasonable amount of support and respect, whether they continue on this path or decide to find a new one.</p>

40

<p>

Strangebro, what felt hostile at Fordham? We really like it on paper because of its location and the possibility of dual-majoring in playwriting. We are scheduled to go visit next week. I’m just curious. We haven’t had a chance to visit many schools, but we did see Emerson and had the same impression you had.</p>