Some states require a balance sheet so that people can make an informed waiver. You can say “you keep your stuff, I’ll keep mine” but you might be waiving a lot and not even know it. MIL might think her house is worth $500k, but it might only be worth $300k, or might be worth $1M. Bob might suddenly claim he was hoodwinked by MIL as she said she was worth $2M and really is only worth $200k. Might be an issue if she dies quickly and if he hadn’t signed the pre-nup, and he claims he signed under misinformation. If they have a balance sheet, MIL (or her family) can say “he signed it knowing she was worth about $500k and that’s what she was worth. He said he didn’t want any of it.”
I’m sure a lot of the really rich from Arkansas had oil and gas revenues, farms, water rights - things that might be hard to value in the future. This way they state what they are worth and that he/she claims no right to them Laws are usually made after worst case scenarios.
So I think of a pre-nup as relevant for divorce situations. But above I saw it mentioned for handling of estates (which I think of as only being handled by Wills/trusts). Would prenup make the pre-marriage assets exempt from the minimum spouse percentage defined by state estate rules?
In the case I was involved with, yes. In fact, this couple, both older, did the pre-nup with death, not divorce, in mind. Both had previous marriages, both had assets, and both had children.
With depletion of assets and care costs, could MIL’s assets be drained if Bob runs out of funds if they are legally married, no matter what agreement they may want to draft?
(I’m thinking of situations when there is a signed divorce decree around parental cost sharing with college, or one parent is assigned college costs. A divorce decree that states “Sam will pay all college costs” has no bearing to a financial aid office, and that’s often a shocking surprise to students and their parents.)
Oh, absolutely her assets could be drained if he runs out of money. I mean, she is liable (as is he) for the full $7,200 per month owed to the CCRC. The CCRC couldn’t care less who pays that money, but someone is going to pay it.
It’s very unhelpful not knowing what his assets and liabilities are, to say the least. But, she can do whatever she wants with her money whether they are married or not. I mean, she could pay off all of his debt. Does he have any??? Who knows? She could fully fund their trips. The pre-nup is really only helpful to the extent that she doesn’t commingle assets.
Friend L said they need a co-habitation agreement. Which, perhaps isn’t a bad idea, but that isn’t going to happen.
Fwiw, my parent who had the pre-nup paid for EVERYTHING during that marriage. There hadn’t been anything in their agreement about costs while they were together, and that parent was naturally a generous soul. So yes, if they had been splitting their costs a little more evenly while they were married, there would have been more assets for the heirs. But those assets belonged to that parent to be used as that parent saw fit, and generosity to the new spouse was what was deemed fit. All adults of sound mind. Choices I may not have agreed with but not mine to make.
I wish (and I know your entire family does as well!) that MIL would smartly choose the “social” marriage and not get legally married.
Have a ceremony, a dress, a reception, call themselves husband and wife—just don’t do it with government paperwork. There is no reason for them to assume that profound financial liability for the other at this stage in their lives. They can enjoy all the benefits of “being married” without the immense risks at this point, by partaking in everything but getting a marriage license. Sigh.
Interesting story – I have friends – contemporaries-- who were committed to each other, owned a home together, built a life together, and we’re more “married” without a license than many legally married couples I know. For them, it was a philosophical/political/spiritual stance. He had an event that resulted in a hospitalization and she was not allowed to see him as she was not kin. It was reallyupsetting to both of them. They married quickly and quietly as soon as he recovered. Which is all to say that there may be a few reasons to do this legally, in spite of the headaches. It’s complicated!
Interestingly, Bob’s son (who is dh’s age) has some sort of medical condition (heart thing?? I also know he has alpha gal). He’s on disability. Anyway, he had a multi-year girlfriend, and my understanding is the main reason they got married in 2023 was because of his medical situation and needing her to be able to be involved when he’s hospitalized.
How much money is your MIL getting from your deceased FIL’s Social Security? That will vanish if she gets married, unless her SS is more than her late husbands. If they marry, she will only be eligible for half of Bob’s SS. It really is imperative that she finds out what his financials are. Suggestions of a “social” marriage are very good.
She out earned my fil. She worked maybe seven years longer than he did?? He was never a particularly high earner. Just a super frugal penny pincher. At the time of his death her SS was about $50? $100? more per month than his was. So, she collects her own.
There was an interesting story this week (I want to say NYT, but I dont think thats right) that featured two women, BFFs who were not romantically involved but were 100% each others “person” who married to basically be able to take care of each other in such situations.
I may be missing something (and to be absolutely clear I’m 100% for marriage equality), but for people that do choose a “social” marriage instead of a legally registered marriage (e.g. for financial reasons, such as losing social security survivor benefits, or concerned about asset depletion late in life) wouldn’t a POA and a Healthcare POA cover that if you wanted to designate a person…?
No. Pre-marital assets do not become marital property unless they are commingled. Same for debts incurred prior to marriage. Spouse is not liable for pre-marital debts
I’m not a lawyer, but I would guess that yes, you could probably come up with a lot of situations in which a POA would work. But if you’re going to have to go to the trouble to do the legal work, you have not dodged the legal system nor have you dodged issues around “common law” marriages, so you have still had to engage a lawyer with a less comprehensive outcome.
In the case of my friends, however, the issue wasn’t simply one of decision-making but one of who was allowed in the room with the hospitalized person. The fact that they weren’t husband and wife relegated them to friends in the eyes of the hospital, and the sick one was without the comfort, company, or trusted advice of their partner of close to 2 decades. (Family was many hours away to boot.) It’s not clear that they could have imagined that this would happen or have executed a document that the hospital would have accepted. It was a while ago, and many details have escaped me, but what I clearly remember was that it so thoroughly shook this marriage-averse couple that they practically stopped at the courthouse on their way home from the hospital!
Mil texted dh and sil Tuesday evening that she and Bob are getting married on November 24th - HIS 86th birthday. Guess after four other marriages, this is the best way for him to remember the date.
Allegedly mil is keeping her house through March. Sil had sat down with both of them earlier on Tuesday (they are back in mil’s town) and walked through taking care of the house until then. That was a needed conversation regardless of whether they married. Light timers, yard, cleaning, forwarding mail, etc. Apparently, things went well until they started talking about what furniture would be moved to the CCRC. Bob has strong opinions. Wants the fancy formal living room furniture moved. Notwithstanding the fact that mil and sil say it isn’t really comfortable and too formal. The home at the CCRC only has one living area. Had opinions about box sizes for moving. They would go in his car, so he would know what would fit and what would be needed. Just odd. Not exactly sure what transpired, but at some point in the conversation, sil told Bob that she would talk to her mother about anything she wanted whenever she wanted and share her opinions with her. He seems very controlling. Sil characterized him as being disrespectful of her. Mil said nothing to Bob about how he was speaking sil.
I guess when they were discussing the potential pre-nup and that if they got married they needed to allow time to get that done, mil turned to Bob and said, “Have you asked me to marry you yet?” So I think she’s the one pushing for marriage. So that may be why the marriage date announcement came later Tuesday night after they had their sit-down with sil. Remember, mil has been very cagey about when and if a marriage would happen until now. We hope the pre-nup will get executed.
After sil had her sit-down with them, she called dh who then shared this info with me. I haven’t been able to talk to sil directly since I’ve been busy out of town visiting a friend. Now dh and I are headed on vacation where we will be with other friends. Which is why I’m just now checking in here with the Bobgate update even though I knew the wedding date Tuesday night. And, why I may also be slow to respond here. But, all y’all deserved to know this development.
Oh, and lucky us. Bob and mil will be in our town at the CCRC for both Thanksgiving and Christmas. Yay
