<p>I too vote for staying out of it, but using it as a great learning opportunity for your daughter and for you to build your relationship further (which sounds great by the way she shares these things with you).</p>
<p>I am not sure about the question below, and the underlying double standard annoys me: </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>We know boys and girls both have sex drives and do things we would so prefer they not do. But it’s a crying shame that adults judge this girl as having ‘esteem’ issues but the same question is never asked of the boy who may have very well reciprocated in some fashion (before, then, later…who knows). If boys act out their urges, they are high-fiving studs; if girls do, they are seen as having something mentally wrong with them. Whoever says, “gee he’s slept with half the girls in his school…clearly it’s for attention, poor thing, obviously doesn’t respect himself very much.” Ack.</p>
<p>^^It is a shame, but it is one double standard I don’t think has changed in the last 30 years…or 50. I don’t think it’s right, but I do think we need to educate our young D’s that this attitude is prevalent.</p>
<p>One more thing, hopefully these young women have had their HPV vaccinations. It may be the least of some folks worries, but at least it may protect against some cancer.</p>
<p>Whether or not its reciprocated, one wonders about the emotional maturity to handle such a sexually charged relationship at such a young age and taking appropriate precautions. Just counting my blessings that I am ignorant of any such goings on when my kids were in their teens…would probably have kept me up at nights some. We/I didn’t have to deal with this until college & beyond, but I suppose some crowds are “faster” than others.</p>
<p>It never ceases to amaze me what goes on in the world. These children are growing up way to fast. </p>
<p>Maybe I’m a lot different from anybody else, but I never dated in high school. I didn’t have a girlfriend unitl I was a sophomore in college. </p>
<p>These children are missing out on their childhoods. You have your whole life to date and have sex. That is the time to act like a kid and not have too much to worry about.</p>
<p>So true. It isn’t appropriate to apply the standards of our day to girls’ behavior today. Believe me, I don’t like what I hear and see but that doesn’t change reality. An 8th grader engaging in oral sex doesn’t necessarily have “self esteem” problems, nor is it necessarily a case for parents or counselors to interfere, especially non-related parents. Back in my day, girls were labeled and ostracized if they had sex, but nowadays that kind of behavior is seen by their peers as normative. Recently, I overheard a group of girls talking and one commented very casually that she had had “blackout sex with X twice”. I had to turn around to see this girl and she was the most clean scrubbed girl, no more than 17, I’d ever seen. Her friends sort of laughed, some a little nervously, but she was so matter of fact, I was floored. All I could think was how heartbroken her mother would be if she could hear her D. </p>
<p>Believe me, I am saddened by this. I really hope she is an extreme case but I kind of doubt that. I guess my point is that one shouldn’t assume that this girl (from the OP, I mean) needs intervention, other than a ride to Planned Parenthood.</p>
<p>Oh I agree! But I would be equally upset/dismayed/horrified if I found out my son or my daughter had done this. It’s the double standard I question. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Kidding right? It’s always been there…and far worse. Used to be women couldn’t even get birth control! And women on TV had to hide visible pregnancies. I see it getting gradually better, but it is still an ugly remnant of society’s oppression of women’s sexuality that I don’t plan to perpetuate.</p>
<p>I strongly discourage both of my kids from sexual activity and toward making mature and well thought out judgments in this arena. However, the last thing I could care less about is my daughter making her sexual decisions based on how others might judge her. There are tons of great and sufficient reasons to make the right decisions here: like health, maybe legal, emotional and relational well-being, birth control failures. There is no need for the reason of “and what will people think”.</p>
<p>Here would be my chance, if I were a parent, to discuss the issue with my daughter, first of all. I would ask her to help develop a goal of showing true love to her friend, this boy, their parents, and to protect the potential newborn(s). Our goal would be to set my concern about being “hurt”, by the consequences of my divulging the sexual behavior, aside. What is most important is to do everything possible to prevent a child from being born, as it would be devastating for the child to be born to this couple (abortion/killing the baby is not what the baby would want his/her parents to do to them, so this is not an option). This would require straight up talk with the parents. It is about caring enough to confront when bad is happening. If I were to have a child, I would want other parents to please inform me of what’s up with my kid. That is the most loving thing to do. If we shut our eyes to bad, then it only grows in our society. There is a time to stand up in the face of bad actions, like Dr. Laura does. It really does take a village to raise a child. We should all love each other enough to keep each other in line, but to do so in a humble and gentle way, offering as much help as possible.</p>
<p>My D told her GFs in HS, “We have the rest of our lives ahead of us! Let’s get to be good GFs now & we have the whole rest of our lives to have relationships with men and all the other things that do with it.” For the most part, they agreed and have had boys as buddies and when they needed a date (for formal dances, etc., they’d get a group of guys that all got along well with ALL the girls & each other).</p>
<p>I really feel sorry for folks that grow up as fast as these young ones are–these are not choices one should be confronted with at such tender ages. How can you make reasoned choices at age 13? Mentally, emotionally, you just can’t. That’s why one really can’t give “informed consent” at such a young age.</p>
<p>Sorry, I guess I’m from another world. Had never heard of “blackout sex” & had to just look it up now in the urban dictionary. How awful. Any kid from that “hookup” might have no idea at all whom the father or sperm donor was. YUCK! Hope she & those she hangs out with regularly are getting tested for STDs & may someday make it to AA. Aids & other STDs still do exist and have serious consequences.</p>
<p>I completely agree with you. Your daughter sounds a lot like myself. I didn’t need to have a girlfriend in high school. I had friends who were girls, but that was it. Having sex never even crossed my mind.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, I think we’re in the minority here. Many kids today are growing up way too fast and are having sex way too young.</p>
<p>I was in a very similar situation when my daughter was in 8th grade, about four years ago. While chaperoning a field trip, I saw one of her girlfriends with a boy - they were all over each other. Her mother and I are friends, not extremely close, but I knew that she would not like the behavior. I wondered if she had some inkling about what her daughter was up to. The girl was similar to the OPs description - high spirited, loved the attention of boys, etc. I decided to discuss it with the mother, because if it were my daughter, I would want to know. </p>
<p>The mom was happy that I told her - she already had a good idea that her daughter was becoming intimate with the boy, and this was only more concrete evidence. She ended up monitoring her daughter very closely, who eventually calmed down a bit and who is now a high school senior headed off to college. </p>
<p>A few years later, the mom told me that a few of her other friends warned her at the same time and all of their alarm really led her to realize that she had to take action. One friend actually told her that she needed to put her daughter on birth control. She was not offended, although I do think she was embarrassed. Mostly, I think that she was happy to have her friends looking out for her daughter’s well-being.</p>
<p>My daughter was very aware of the girl’s behavior and she didn’t like it. They ended up drifting apart, although they still belong to a very large circle of the same friends.</p>
<p>This sounds like my junior daughter and her group of friends. When some of the kids in her group started becoming couples, a few of the girls decided to focus on school and sports rather than having boyfriends. They have a large circle of friends, both girls and boys, and participate fully in social events, they just go as a group. I am thrilled with this arrangement and I think it serves them all well. They are the top students in a large school and most of them are top athletes also. They don’t have the time or energy for bf/gf relationships.</p>
<p>The one thing that does bug me about all this is the questions from friends and relatives. It seems like the first thing people ask is whether my daughter has a boyfriend yet. And when she tells them no, she doesn’t have time, they act like there is something wrong with her. My sister even asked me if she was gay!!! She is not, not there is anything wrong with that (Seinfeld, haha). Because my nieces and nephews all had bfs/gfs in middle school, they think my daughter is a weirdo. But I am quite proud of my “weirdo”!</p>
<p>starbright–No, I wasn’t kidding. I do agree with the points you made, but my point was that there <em>is</em> a double standard, and that it’s been around a long time. You are right; progress has been made, but not enough.</p>
<p>How big is your community? Have you ever lived in a really, really small town? The town nearest our school has ~300 people, one blinking light, one gas station. School has ~50-55 students per grade. Life here is lived in a complete fishbowl. I have lived in metro suburban areas. There is a HUGE difference. Actually, there is no comparison.</p>
<p>I agree with your points that the most important reasons are not “what will people think”. However, I disagree that it’s not a reason at all. It is where I live. Everyone here knows everyone’s business. I don’t want my D being the “town tramp”. I’ve seen the effects of that label and it’s not pretty. Might be a whole lot different somewhere bigger, but that’s not where I live.</p>
<p>As far as this girl having “esteem issues” believe me she does. She was attached to the hip to her mother, calling her 20x a day from school or texting. When this boy came along it just transferred over to him. I’m no shrink but think she’s very vulnerable with her lack of independence. Her grades have fallen WAY off in the past couple of years…from top grades to bottom of the barrel. I suggested to her mother last year that maybe she’d like to talk to someone (the daughter) and that didn’t go over well.</p>
<p>I know that there are a lot of girls (and boys) in HS who are NOT having sex and who are not hung up on having a boy/girl friend. I say, great. I think they’re the lucky ones. They’re getting to know themselves, what they’re capable of. But for those who are sexually active, there’s a whole range of activity out there. I really, really hope “blackout sex” is the extreme. When I mentioned having overheard this conversation to my college D, she said she had never heard that term before. So maybe it isn’t as prevalent as all those FB drunken photos would suggest?</p>
<p>dke, sounds like this girl had problems (texting her mother 20x a day?) long before all this came up. It also sounds like the mother is in denial, and there isn’t much an outsider can do about that.</p>
<p>How old is this boyfriend? This sounds like a potential legal problem for the young man if he is old enough to drive himself to the mall. The young teens should be informed as to what the legal consequences are of sexual encounters…there is no consent possible, and the results for the young man could be devastating. Additionally, one might notify mall security that they should be policing who has access to family bathroom.</p>
<p>My D was buddies with the guys and the only girl who went to their regular poker parties (& won!) She has a large circle of male & female buddies, including one who is gay and many who aren’t. She is happy but has not spent the time or energy to develop any serious romantic relationship. I am happy for her & S and glad they are nurturing the friendships that I believe will endure for a very long time. I believe many of D’s GFs will be her lifetime friends. </p>
<p>I told her I (mildly) regret that I spent nearly all my time with my HS BF & didn’t have the large circle of friends that she has, tho I have two friends from jr. high that are still close to me 40 years later! She and her friends have taken it to heart and try to keep their relationships with boys lighter and their GF friendships deep and sustained. They are all on track in their academics and many plan to go on to grad/pro school.</p>
<p>They visit one another at college and in many ways are much like sisters (since many of them don’t have sisters or only one sibbling). I’m happy for them that they have one another and can make good choices together. It gives them a good frame of reference that they can turn to other than popular media, which often portrays things as mainstream which thankfully is sometimes pretty rare in their lives.</p>
<p>This is probably where we differ since I live in a large, diverse city. Moreover, we have lived everywhere, and our daily family life is extremely international, which changes one’s focus entirely (there is less of a sense of ‘one right way to do things’ and one realizes the ‘shoulds’ are often pretty arbitrary and provincial). </p>
<p>Collectively, we all tend to worry wayyy too much about what others think- especially teenagers. Even in big cities. I’m still working on this myself at my middle age. And too often build our sense of reality around the tiny, often unique microcosm we grow up in without even realizing how very provincial it is. </p>
<p>So anyway, my real point is I would like to raise my kids to think LESS about what others think and MORE about what THEY think. I would like my kids to mature toward making decisions and engage in behavior MORE/MOSTLY because it matches their values, their moral compass, their principles, and because it’s well thought out and the RIGHT THING TO DO…and LESS/INFREQUENTLY because of others’ judgment of them (especially at some arbitrary point in time in some singular location, like a HS). They have enough of that already. Why box yourself into others’ expectations if it doesn’t jive with your own beliefs or is norms that doesn’t hold weight outside your little current bubble? </p>
<p>I want them to grow up convicted, independent, confident; to feel they can somehow make the world a better place (don’t we all?) and be strong enough to lead, and buck the dumb messages that society tries to put on us, that hold us into boxes based on categories people put us into…so I don’t want to go NEAR the message “worry about what others think” when “follow your principles” (based on something MUCH bigger than the neighbors opinion or the PTA rumor mill) is far more important and effective. </p>
<p>Don’t get me wrong, I imagine you share the same goals for your kids about being independent, leaders etc. But my point is, I think I don’t know how to encourage them to think independently, and to mature them into citizens of the world, their ‘own person’ and STILL play the “worry about the neighbors” card. It just runs so counter to everything else I tell them.</p>
<p>"If boys act out their urges, they are high-fiving studs; if girls do, they are seen as having something mentally wrong with them. Whoever says, “gee he’s slept with half the girls in his school…clearly it’s for attention, poor thing, obviously doesn’t respect himself very much.” Ack. "</p>
<p>I’m about as sex-positive a feminist as you will find, and I heartily agree with you when we’re talking about adults. But when it comes to 8th graders, I know what I’ve seen in the world, and I know what I’ve never seen. As a matter of pure descriptive observation, straight 8th graders hooking up in malls aren’t having reciprocal oral sex designed to bring the girl pleasure. The girls try to please the boys, period. The girls’ motivation has to do with attention, affirmation, popularity, etc., and her own curiosity is only a secondary concern. The idea of the female having needs that can be satisfied is foreign to both genders in this crowd. The straight young women who think they are entitled to respectful, reciprocal sex don’t do it in 8th grade.</p>
<p>If anyone else observed a different pattern in their own teenage years or from working with this generation of teenagers, I’m interested to hear about it. But I do make assumptions about the dynamic behind these hookups based on the fact that I’ve seen a lot of them and they all work the same way. I wish we lived in a world where these gendered assumptions weren’t true, but in my experience, they are.</p>