Opinions on Marital Money Conflict

<p>I don’t want to make this thread 59 pages longer, but I did want to update with what has transpired in 2 years. So much to say…I will probably make a few updates in a series to make it more readable.</p>

<p>First of all, I wanted to thank all of you again for responding to this. I re-read the whole thing in the last few days, and remembered how much it really helped me with perspective on how people compromise (or don’t) in marriages about money. It’s not something you can discuss with friends or relatives because they won’t necessarily give you details, about how much money they REALLY have, how they compromised on big decisions, if one of them is irresponsible, how the deal with conflict, what deals were struck when they married, etc.</p>

<p>Long story short, if you don’t want to read all this…we are divorcing.</p>

<p>It was definitely ‘not about the bike’! And it is ironic that the Harley was the beginning of the end, because the first marital blow up during week one in 1989, was about a bike (a $700 Trek purchased with most of our gift money) and it should have been my first clue that the whole thing was about value differences and control and would be an ongoing power struggle. He did not show this behavior while dating. It was as soon as my paycheck became part of the picture that this surfaced. He didn’t have the funds to live lavishly between 20 and 24 - only until after we were married did this surface.</p>

<p>In re-reading the thread, there are definitely things I neglected mentioning that seem important now, or I didn’t want to get into them at the time, and things that have happened in the last 2 years, that shed more light on why I am where I am today. In 20/20 hindsight, I really married the wrong guy. He showed me who he was a long time ago…and as Maya Anelou says…when people show you who they are, believe them.</p>

<p>I have been seeing a therapist for 6 years, and she has helped me see other perspectives - how healthy relationships work, how people compromise, work as a team, etc. You would think I might have understood this, as I grew up in a very functional household. But I just didn’t see it. It’s as clear as day now. I guess I thought perhaps my parents’ marriage was just really exemplary, I should not expect mine to be like that. Well, maybe not, but not this dysfunctional. It should not be this hard. It should be a joy - at least sometimes. I kept justifying in my head…well, he’s not as bad as that guy, and they’re still married, or he has so many good points, etc.</p>

<p>So, in mid to late 2011, it became clear that my husband’s job was being eliminated. (remember back in very early posts…I had been saying that neither one of our jobs was safe short term, hence my wanting to be ultra conservative) They were told that by April of 2012, their division would be gone. He managed to get a new job in Sept of 2011, many of his coworkers are still unemployed. He was very lucky…I’ve always thought he had a horseshoe up his rear end. He barely needed to work during most of 2011, because their territory was being shut down, so he worked on the third rental property and my aunt’s house (which he spent 60k on to renovate, not the initially planned 20k…my father was OK with this and agreed that each additional expenditure was probably wise, but my husband wanted to do a lot more than 60k, so it was a power struggle with mean things said about my father, who simply wanted to get the house cleaned up and on the market) After real estate fees, taxes, additional expenses, and a slow real estate market, my sister and I cleared 60k each. (which I think is great)</p>

<p>My husband’s new job has been OK, but not great. He knows he is in a little over his head - his other job was extremely easy and he barely had to do a thing to make decent money. Some sales jobs are like that, and when you are extremely good looking and charming and can work people (like him), you can do well if the product you are selling is ok. The product in this new job is a very difficult sell. So halfway through the year, he began interviewing in earnest for another job, which he was offered. However, he could not accept it because (drum roll, please) he had been smoking pot in the last month and it would come up on their drug test. The company he is currently with did not drug test, neither did his old company so he was probably doing this all along. I had known that he was an occasional smoker, and highly disapproved of it, and told him so many many years ago. He hid it from me (he apparently does it while renovating and hanging out with contractors). I had no idea he still did it. So, since he did not accept the job, he did not have to face the embarrassment of having the drug test come back positive. He was actually considering using adulterants to try to ‘fool’ the test…however, since I am in management at a Fortune 500 company, I know that they test for adulterants, and I said, no way, don’t be stupid. Just decline the offer. (my husband is above rules and ethics, I might be able to write more on that later) The pot smoking revelation came after the decision to divorce, so it just made me feel like I have done the right thing, and that he needs to be cut loose.</p>

<p>My job is better. I simply took matters into my own hands and asked to be switched out of my job and into another on my own team. We needed additional headcount, so I became the ‘add to staff’. I was able to help hire my new manager, and he has been fine. I don’t know if I will continue to stay, but things have improved. My company did not make it easy on me in the switch either, as a matter of fact, they were quite hostile. I stood my ground, I think a few people stuck up for me, and things have been good. Many other people in my division have done this, so at least there was a precedent. </p>

<p>The third rental property cost a lot more than my husband thought it would (surprise surprise - remember, I had said, poor estimating skills - or, maybe it’s a game, where he asks for X, gets you into it, then it’s Y and you are stuck). He ran up large amounts of credit card debt and took equity out of the rental house, but that was still not enough. He suggested that I loan my inheritance from my aunt’s house (which I hadn’t gotten yet) at a competitive rate. I couldn’t lend what I didn’t yet have, nor did I feel comfortable taking it out of our own liquid savings given his being in a new job, so had to take out a loan against my 401k (50k) to ‘fix’ the problem. Had he not been between employers when this happened, I’d have had him take it out of his own 401k. We will be transferring this debt to him soon. He pays me monthly for the loan from rental proceeds. Because this loan was ‘off the books’, the business looks great to the bank. They refinanced all of the debt at a highly competitive rate and the business is back on track, rents are high and flowing in. So, not good, but not all bad. He is ending up using the ‘Harley money’ toward the loan, and taking a loan out of his own 401k now that it is set up and funded. And yes, I know that if he loses this job, the loan comes due immediately or is taxed/penalized. Hopefully, I won’t be married to him if that happens! If it does, it’s somehow going to be extracted from his side of the equation.</p>

<p>So, once the renovations were done on both houses, and husband settled into new job, it came time to finish our own house, which has been neglected severely. I have lived in this house for 9 years, and pay about $2900 mortgage, but live in about 1500 square feet of it. He is a perfectionist, and has to either do the work himself, or micro manage the contractor so the work has been slow. This has been the way with every house we have lived in. I haven’t really been able to entertain due to being under construction all the time. The kids generally don’t have guests over because we have one small tv area. Four people share one bathroom. I don’t have a large laundry room or finished basement (he gutted it a year and a half ago), so I hang dry the finer washables in the dining room (picture thongs on the chandelier… ; ) ). The first floor of the house is impeccably renovated. Everything else, not so much. So we began talking about how we are going to finish it off, and his plans were grandiose. He wanted to put on a small addition over our back porch to expand our master bath, or change foot print of upstairs to expand master bath into a guest bedroom. </p>

<p>Given the 50k loan I just made to the business, and the job situation, I did not want to allow the grandiose renovations to the upstairs (we are now 50k to 100k in the hole on this house, based on comps - we still have a lot of equity, but we are not getting back what we have put into it). I said renovate it within the existing foot print and use quality materials. But, in order to not be the bad guy and be name called, I offered to take our situation to a financial counselor. If, like Suze Orman, she said we could afford the renovations he wanted because we are ‘so rich’, I would do it. And I wanted to seriously discuss going with a different financial system so that we didn’t have these power struggles any more…we’d have his/hers and some joint. He refused to talk to a financial counselor and lay it all out for someone to give an opinion on. </p>

<p>Meanwhile, and I don’t know if I am pretty sure I neglected to talk about this in other posts, his obsessive compulsive disorder was getting quite out of hand. The first floor of my house always looks like a photo shoot for Pottery Barn, btw. If anything is out of place, or if any damage has been done (small mark on a wall, dent in hard wood floor, small pot scrape in white ceramic sink you get the picture), I pay by being verbally or emotionally abused - it doesn’t matter who did it or how it happened, it’s all about me. As I discussed this with my therapist, it became apparent to me that really, I’ve been tolerating a lot of verbal abuse the whole marriage…I’ve just shouldered it. Essentially, if I didn’t want to do something that he wanted to do, I would be name called, berated and belittled. I would also be periodically, randomly, picked at. He might cut down a hairstyle, a decorating choice, or might say something mean about my parents, who are saints. So, to combat this, I began 1) not running around to make things perfect any more 2)pushing more responsibility on him and the kids, who are 15 and 20 and should pick up after themselves, do dishes etc. and 3) fighting him tooth and nail on the verbal abuse - not letting one little get by 4)letting some people hear some of the crazy stuff he says to me, because almost all of it is done privately. I insisted he attend counseling for the OCD, which he refused. Said if everyone would just do what they were supposed to do, he would not be this way - but apparently, it’s apparently my responsibility to martial the kids and make the house perfect for him. He bears no responsibility in getting them to do things. </p>

<p>So, some time after last Christmas, we decided we were definitely splitting up. I decided no normal person would refuse counseling, and that most people would want to at least try to show that they wanted to keep their family together. But, we are still living together and arriving at official time frames and plans.</p>

<p>I have come to believe he is just not emotionally normal. He actually shows very little empathy for others, when it should absolutely be demonstrated. He has been quite cruel and abusive to me in many ways, and it is beginning to extend to one of our daughters - maybe because I won’t accept it anymore? But if I ever bring up ways he has hurt me, he accuses me of always living in the past. However, these things were especially cruel and very hard to forget (if I need to embellish later with examples of this I will but prefer not to). I did threaten to leave him 3 or 4 times during the marriage for various reasons…and he would shape up. So he showed the capacity to change. So I guess I thought I could get him to come around on the finances. Not so.</p>

<p>I have begun to wonder if he might be somewhere on the spectrum of narcissistic personality disorder - the cerebral type maybe. Not severely narcissistic, but somewhat. I don’t know, and it doesn’t really matter now. My therapist thinks he could be, but since he won’t get therapy, we really can’t ever know. Definitely obsessive compulsive, passive aggressive, and verbally and emotionally abusive.</p>

<p>I understand my role in this completely now. First of all, I made a rotten choice in a partner and did not negotiate part time employment while raising kids or anything of the sort…granted, when it was needed, it should have been freely given. But, I was an enabling doormat, and constantly subjugated my needs to his. I did fight back quite a bit, but I caved a lot. I have gone through some self hatred for being this way, but I am getting better.</p>

<p>Good luck to you. I hope you and the children find peace being on your own.</p>

<p>I’m so sorry for all of your struggles. You know, sometimes an ending is a new beginning. I don’t know what makes some people abusers, but whether it’s verbal, physical, or emotional, it is not okay. I am proud of you for standing up for yourself. You are being a great role model for your kids by asserting yourself.</p>

<p>Wow. Has it been 2 years? Sorry you are divorcing but it sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders. Good luck with it all.</p>

<p>And agree, it wasn’t about the motorcycle !</p>

<p>{{{ hugs }}}</p>

<p>Best wishes for you. And, you’re right…it wasn’t about the motorcycle.</p>

<p>I don’t know much about Narcissistic PD, but it does sound like he has very poor self-image and he combats it with OCD, being a bully, etc. If he’s involved with alcohol or other drugs, that can contribute to being irrational and anger management issues.</p>

<p>Again, I don’t know much about NPD, but from what I’ve read it is “on the rise” in this country and more greatly affects males.</p>

<p>My conflict for much much higher amount was resolved pretty much like other minor confilicts. My H. knows that I am always right. I just reminded him about that, discussion was relatevly short. In our case, the discussion amount was about $300k (over 4 years though). Most likely, I would not even discuss $25k too much, it is not worth it, it is a price of one car. If he wants to spend $25k, then simply do not buy another car for awhile. The rest of our story is pretty close to yours, no inheritance of any kind though and never will be (hopefully).</p>

<p>Sorry to hear about this, hotchilipepper. I remember this thread well… I can only say that it will be painful in the short term (1-2 years), but you will likely be much happier in the long run. And no one can say you didn’t give it a good try!</p>

<p>I am curious (did not reread every post, but quite a few). Did you end up keeping your inheritence and any gifts from your parents separated in different accounts with good tracking of any expenditures? This is when it will matter.</p>

<p>HCP I am sorry to hear for your troubles. But I am glad to know that the two of you talked, that you were able to express yourself and that you tried working through a tough issue.</p>

<p>I guess Redroses experience was accurate, after all.</p>

<p>I can’t imagine the stress of staying in a long term marriage with so much conflict. I’d think just dealing with that day after day, would eventually kill you or make you sick. I hope you find the peace and happiness in your life that you have been missing out on.</p>

<p>I hear you busdriver.</p>

<p>Mom3ToGo and I do not have perfect marriage … actually far from it. But we both in same boat, were both rowing, and we’re both rowing in (generally) the same direction. It must be very emotionally tiring when the spouses are headed in different directions on major topics.</p>

<p>Thanks for the kind words, everyone.</p>

<p>Intparent, the inheritance was kept separately, never commingled with marital assets.</p>

<p>Regarding Redroses being correct…I wasn’t ready to move on - heck I am still living with him! I made many attempts to offere solutions, I was not ready. I WAS ready to start being a little more about my needs though, which is really helping me get through this. I think also, from now on, I will be more attentive to ‘me’.</p>

<p>jym626, if I could PM you I would but CC won’t let me since I am <5 posts in a year…but you were super helpful. Really so many folks were, the support people give each other here is outstanding. Wonderful community.</p>

<p>oh and other gifts received in the somewhat distant past from my parents were used jointly. They were mostly directed toward d1 and d2 tuition, so while benefitting the grandkids, also benefitted mr. hcp and myself in that other money could be directed elsewhere. </p>

<p>Future gifts, if they occur, will be directed differently. We will be married for at least one more year.</p>

<p>Thank you for your kind words, hotchilipepper. That means a lot to me to h=know it was helpful for you.</p>

<p>And really, MiamiDAP, could you possibly be any more insensitive?</p>

<p>MiamiDAP, $25,000 might not be much to you, it would be a huge amount in our household.</p>

<p>^^^At our house, the price of a car is a BIG deal. There is a reason our kids don’t have vehicles.</p>

<p>MiamiDAP, losing my income due to illness is the difference between us being able to fund the rest of S2’s college without loans vs. having to borrow. 100% of my income went to EFC and my actual earnings is somewhat lower than the numbers you were throwing about. So yeah, it’s big money to us, too.</p>

<p>OP, I do hope you are working with your attorney/accountant on the best way to protect your assets. Best of luck as you move forward!</p>

<p>Lemme guess who wears the pants in the MiamiDAP household… :rolleyes:</p>

<p>I’m sorry to hear about your most recent developments, hcp. Best wishes to you!</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Neither DH nor I would even spend $250 without discussing it first (unless it was used to purchase a surprise for the other). If one of us spent $25K without discussing it with the other, there would be a HUGE problem in our house.</p>

<p>25k is a big deal to most of us. I can’t imagine not discussing how to spend that much either. I was in a marriage with similar money issues, and it was no fun. Fortunately, my husband and I see eye to eye on most big financial issues, and have similar goals, such as trying to save enough for our kids to have good college experiences while limiting debt, even though we got started late because we’d both been through divorce and needed to recover from those expenses. There is life, hopefully happier, on the other side of divorce. Do not let yourself be a doormat during this process, and make sure you are getting good legal and financial advice. Make sure you know your rights, and don’t be taken advantage of.</p>

<p>HCP, I second the suggestion to get a good accountant in addition to a good attorney, to make sure that angles are covered with respect to any settlement, including college and grad school costs, retirement funds, health insurance for you and for children thru age 26, etc…all this can be negotiated now but you can be out of luck later.</p>

<p>Also make sure that you don’t end up unable to afford what you are given in the settlement…I have known to many women who thought they really wanted the house, only to find out that they really couldn’t afford it post divorce—not just mortgage payments, but taxes, upkeep, lawncare, utilities, repairs…</p>